E-mail a friendNicole Lee
airdate July 2, 2008
Nicole Lee is the first woman to head TransAfrica Forum—the nation's oldest African American advocacy organization for justice in Africa and the Diaspora. She was previously the organization's CFO and senior policy researcher. Lee worked for a time at a legal aid firm in South Africa, researched claims of human rights abuse in Haiti and served as managing director of Global Justice. A Buffalo, NY native, Lee holds a JD from the University at Buffalo Law School and has done extensive graduate work in women's studies.
TransAfrica Forum exec director explains how Zimbabwean President Mugabe has gone from hero to despot during his 28 years in power. (2:33)
Full Interview. (11:50)
Nicole Lee
Tavis: Reaction to the situation in Zimbabwe tonight with Nicole Lee, executive director of the TransAfrica Forum, a group dedicated to fostering human rights in Africa and beyond. Prior to this post she was managing director of Global Justice, specializing in HIV/AIDS issues. She joins us tonight from Las Vegas. Nicole, nice to have you on the program.
Nicole Lee: Thanks, Tavis.
Tavis: Seems weird talking about the drama in Zimbabwe and you got a nice Vegas backdrop behind you.
Lee: I sure do, and I also want to congratulate the steelworkers for forming the first transatlantic union with the U.K. union here just today in Las Vegas.
Tavis: So you're there for the steelworkers convention.
Lee: Sure am, sure am.
Tavis: Glad you could squeeze us in for a quick conversation here then.
Lee: Thank you.
Tavis: Earlier today, as we mentioned earlier, the U.S. put forth a draft resolution condemning, criticizing - pick a word - what's been happening in Zimbabwe. The U.S. now officially joins so many other countries in the world condemning and criticizing Mugabe and his government. What say you about this situation in Zimbabwe?
Lee: The situation is dire, frankly, and we've had a situation where the government has used its military power to crush the opposition and to really hurt the civil society movement that has developed in Zimbabwe. Over 30 years ago, people got together in Zimbabwe and said no to White minority rule. Well, these same people are now saying the economic promises that were made during that revolution have not been met, and they're looking for new leadership.
And Mugabe's answer to that, frankly, has been to try to crush the opposition, and he's used the courts, he's used the military to do this. And although we want to see the international community speak out against what's going on in Zimbabwe, we have to remember that the sanctions that are already in place against the government in Zimbabwe has actually hurt more the poor people and not the rich and not the elite, and certainly not President Mugabe.
Tavis: You make a valid point, you make a strong point, and yet it's tricky and it's thorny, because you want to put pressure on Mugabe, which means putting pressure unnecessarily and unwittingly, even, as you point out, on the people, but what are your options, though, really?
Lee: Well, I certainly think that the only option the international community has is to try to come up with an international solution. It can't be a U.S. or a United Kingdom solution to the problem because frankly, in southern Africa, they lack the credibility to really be able to foster any sort of lasting peace. But we do have to look to the African Union.
Now yesterday, the African Union put forth a resolution condemning the violence but then also saying that they're looking for negotiations between the MDC - the Movement for Democratic Change, which is the opposition party - and ZANU-PF, which is Mugabe's party. So they're looking for a negotiation to lead to a government of national unity.
Now, a government of national unity certainly is not going to be perfect, given Mugabe's absolute disdain for the opposition and anyone who challenges his authority, but it's going to have to be an African Union solution - an African solution to an African problem.
Tavis: But it seems to me, Nicole, that if Mugabe were interested in sharing power or playing fair, he had the occasion and the opportunity to do that during the election. He chose not to. What reason, now that he's been declared the winner, bogus election though it might have been, what reason now for him to succumb - what does he get out of a shared government at this point?
Lee: Tavis, you're actually echoing the voices of civil society in Zimbabwe that are saying the government of national unity does not go far enough. What we really need is a transitional arrangement, and that is what civil society - the trade unions on the ground in Zimbabwe, the women's groups, all the community groups that have been fighting against this oppression are calling for this transitional arrangement.
They don't believe that Mugabe can be trusted to truly work with the opposition. They can't see how Morgan Tsvangirai is going to sit as a prime minister under President Mugabe and actually then that would be fostering the will of the people. So that actually probably is not the end solution, but certainly taking a page out of the liberation movement, we do have to look to African both governments and civil societies who frankly have been outspoken about ensuring that we are really looking to the leadership that is coming out of Zimbabwe.
Not the government leadership, but the civil society leadership. And what they are calling for is something much further than a government of national unity; they want a transitional arrangement where free and fair elections can be held, where there are actual monitors that are not beholden to the government of Zimbabwe.
Tavis: Speaking of leadership, no less than Nelson Mandela, as he approaches his 90th birthday with all the stature that he has, has been publicly critical, publicly challenging Mugabe to do better by his people - Mandela, no less than him. And yet Mbeki, the president of South Africa, who has really been the person, where African nations are concerned, who they put forth as the ambassador on their behalf to try to resolve some of these issues, as you know, with Mr. Mugabe, has not had much to say at all.
What do you make of the role that Mbeki, the South African president, given the power and the prestige that his government has, what do you make of the role he has played or not played, as it were - Mr. Mbeki, that is.
Lee: Well, it's interesting, because Mbeki was chosen to be the negotiator in this issue, and so there has been these overtures, of course, that in order to be able to mediate the situation you actually have to have the ear of both parties. An given the fact that Mugabe is very difficult to deal with right now, he's not interested in really hearing from civil society in his own country, I think it's been very difficult for President Mbeki to truly fulfill the role as the mediator.
But it's really important that you're also hearing other voices out of southern Africa, you're hearing other voices out of South Africa. The Zambian president, for example, has been outspoken about this situation on the ground and the human rights violations and the violations of personal and economic dignity. He's been outspoken. Of course he's ill right now and was not able to make it to the African Union, but certainly his country has been outspoken.
Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, have all been outspoken, and I think this sort of pressure is extremely important and needs to be kept up because if ZANU-PF and the government of President Mugabe is actually going to do the right thing, that window is closing quite rapidly, and certainly the entire international community is looking at that situation, and they want to see is Zimbabwe really going to be able to rise out of a post-colonial situation that has not always looked to the best interests of its people?
Are they going to be able to rise, and are they going to actually be a democracy that both works for the economic and political needs of its people?
Tavis: How does a guy like Robert Mugabe, Nicole, go from being such an iconic figure, go from being such an African hero to being, as I said earlier, despised by people in his country and indeed around the world right about now?
Lee: Well, I think the steps from revolutionary to political leader can be very difficult, and I think we need to be clear on really who President Mugabe was. Certainly he was a hero - he was jailed, he was beaten, he was imprisoned, he worked very much for the liberation of Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe. And I think it's important to remember that.
I think it's also important to remember that one, many, many, many people are a part of that fight. Many of the same people that are within the opposition today fought alongside Mugabe and ZANU-PF for the liberation of Zimbabwe. But I think we also need to remember that President Mugabe has been showing signs of despotism for quite a long time. This is not brand new.
In the '90s, for example, when people in Zimbabwe were protesting against the International Monetary Fund and their structural adjustment policies, which are economic and economic restructuring of the country, as they were protesting Mugabe was very good friends of the IMF and the World Bank. President Bush the first, we don't remember had a very good relationship with Mugabe although U.S. policies towards Africa as a continent and Zimbabwe as a country weren't exactly in the bets interest of the poorest of the poor.
Mugabe has reigned over the removal of poor people from Harare and set them off into the country without any sort of ability to take care of themselves. And certainly as early as 2003, TransAfrica put out the clarion call to say there are problems in Zimbabwe. Gays and lesbians are being persecuted; women's groups are being persecuted. There are these new POSA laws which basically said that three people - three people - who are not related could not gather together in Zimbabwe without government approval.
So there have been signs all around. Certainly now we have reached a swell where the opposition is not just the MDC, but you're also seeing people in the ranks of ZANU-PF say enough is enough. And so although this is not brand new, we are seeing, unfortunately, a hero now being seen by the world community as certainly a despot. And that is unfortunate, and it's unfortunate for the legacy of Mugabe, which is why he has such a small window to really rectify this situation.
Tavis: How does TransAfrica rate or grade our government at this point in terms of how they're dealing with this crisis? I mentioned earlier, of course, that they put forth this resolution today in the U.N.; that's a step in the right direction. But how does TransAfrica rate how our government is doing on this issue at the moment?
Lee: I think it's very complicated, frankly, for our government to be involved in this situation. Within the continent of Africa, despite all of the rhetoric, in some ways the U.S. has very little credibility in a political solution in southern Africa. It was only Friday, frankly, that Nelson Mandela was taken off the terrorist list in the United States.
And we have a long history of not supporting democratic movements, and I'm not necessarily talking about governments, but democratic movements within southern Africa. So it's very difficult for us to have credibility, even when our government is saying the right things. It's just difficult for people in southern Africa to really, truly hear that the U.S. government is trying to do the right thing here in southern Africa, and so people are very skeptical.
But civil society in the United States, organizations like TransAfrica and the NAACP and many, many, many other organizations have a lot of credibility. We were there during the apartheid struggle; we can and should be there now to support our comrades, to support people in the trade union movement, to support people who truly care about democracy. So if we can do that, we will bring credibility back to U.S. involvement in this situation.
Tavis: I got 20 very quick seconds. I know what you're talking about, but for those who didn't understand that comment you made that Mandela just came off the terrorist list, you'd better explain that right quick.
Lee: Sure, sure. Well, certainly the ANC and the United States, Mandela's party, and the ruling party right now in South Africa, was considered actually to be a terrorist organization throughout the anti-apartheid movement. And now since 9/11, the watch list, if you will, of organizations that sponsor terrorism has become more of an issue.
And so now it's just come to a lot of people's attention that ANC members, not just Nelson Mandela but many party members, have been on a list of people who sponsor terrorism, even though they do not. And of course we all recognize now that Nelson Mandela was a hero and a freedom fighter, and certainly not a terrorist.
And it's just taken a long time for the U.S. government to be able to rectify the situation, but now they have and we congratulate them for it.
Tavis: She is Nicole Lee; she's executive director of TransAfrica Forum, based out of Washington, D.C., although she joined us tonight from Las Vegas. Nicole, nice to have you on, thanks for your insight, as always.
Lee: Thanks Tavis.
Tavis: My pleasure.
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