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Panel discussion on whether Sen. Obama's nomination marks the end of Black politics: Marc Morial, Dr. Cornel West, and Matt Bai (5:57)
 

DNC Wrap-Up: Full interview. (22:11)
 

Tavis: Tonight, we focus on the issue of race in this campaign. I'm pleased to be joined by Marc Morial, president and CEO of the National Urban League and former mayor of New Orleans; Dr. Cornel West, University professor at Princeton and author of the forthcoming book, "Hope on a Tightrope;" and Matt Bai who's been writing about race for "The New York Times." His book, "The Argument" is now out in paperback. Gentlemen, I'm glad to have you all on the program.

Marc Morial: Thanks, Tavis.

Cornel West: Blessed to be here.

Tavis: Dr. West, let me start with you because, on this program last night, we had the chance to on the air right after Mr. Obama's historic speech and we got into last night an abbreviated conversation about race as the backdrop of that historic acceptance speech.

The backdrop in this regard, he obviously is the first African American to accept his party's nomination for president and it was the 45th anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech. On the issue of race specifically, unpack for me your formulation on how Obama did or did not do with that backdrop last night.

West: I think part of the problem for me, though, Tavis, is that I have a philosophical disagreement with Brother Obama even though I deeply support him, namely that I'm much closer to Herman Melville in terms of centrality of history and memory. I'm much closer to Tony Morrison in terms of the role of history and memory empowering us as we attempt to create a different future.

Whereas, I think for Obama and his advisors, they want to escape from history. They don't want to allude to memory, so they can't mention Martin Luther King, Jr.'s name, let alone Fannie Lou Hamer, let alone the Black and White and Brown young people who struggled in the south in such a way that we can have a Barack Obama in 2008. So in that regard, I just acknowledge the difference, but I think in a way that those who attempt to escape from history end up running into a dead end. I don't want to see him do that.

Tavis: Marc Morial, what does it mean that we can celebrate in Black America the fact that Hillary Clinton boldly this week talked about Harriet Tubman in her speech? That was the crescendo, Harriet Tubman. She bore down on that thing, but Barack Obama, to Dr. West's point, wouldn't even mention the name of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech last night.

Morial: Well, you know, I wouldn't draw on that as a specific issue of him avoiding the issue of race because the convention last night included a very important tribute to Dr. King, presentations by his son and daughter, and I think a very important reference. Barack Obama is a candidate for president. He has to win an election. He has to be true to history, but he's also got to amass a coalition of voters in a very broad and diverse situation.

He's got a tremendous challenge in front of him to assemble that coalition and hold that coalition together. I do think that it is clear that he is a fruit of the struggles and the work of the civil rights generation. I think he's acknowledged that. I don't think that we should hold him to a standard of having to acknowledge that every single time he makes a major address.

Tavis: But on the anniversary of the "I Have a Dream" speech, that's a very different issue, yes?

Morial: Yes, and I do think that he gave a powerful reference to Dr. King. Some might argue that he should have "mentioned his name." I did hear that from some people, but I do think that, in a speech where he was accepting the nomination for president, I do think he gave due respect in due course to Dr. King's very important contributions and the fact that this was the 45th anniversary of the march.

Tavis: To this notion that we hear all the time inside of Black America, Marc, that he is not running for the president of Black America, we all get that. But that argument keeps being made by those who want to, for lack of a better word, excuse him, to your point, when he doesn't mention race in every speech that he gives. I certainly understand that.

I guess the question is whether or not it is worth winning the White House for an African American candidate if the suffering of Black people have to be rendered invisible during that campaign by said candidate.

Morial: Well, let me say this, and I've said this. I come to where I am as one who has run and won many elections and had to deal with the difficulties of assembling coalitions and principled positions. But I also come to it as someone who spent five years as a leader of a civil rights organization. What I do believe is, it is very important that, when I look at a Barack Obama, I want to make sure he's held to the same standard, not a higher standard or a lesser standard than anyone else who's running for president.

Some may argue, "Well, I expect more from him," but I think that, if we're going to get beyond the racial divisions of the past, we also have to make sure that we're not raising the bar inadvertently or raising the bar subconsciously by saying, "Well, I want to hear a whole lot more of that or I want to hear a whole lot more of this." I do think that he has championed policies, he's endorsed and I think elevated some domestic issues to a level that I have not seen in quite some time.

Tavis: Matt Bai, let me ask you this. That cover story that you did that everybody I know read and debated, I might add, which is what you want to happen, I suspect, as a writer, "Is Obama the End of Black Politics?" That was the cover story of "The New York Times Magazine," recently your story. I've heard a number of people say that the question itself is offensive, that the question was unwarranted. Back to Marc's point, that he ought not to be held to a higher standard, the same standard. Unpack for me that very question.

Matt Bai: Sure.

Tavis: Is Obama the end of Black politics?

Bai: Well, I think the question, as we explained, is a very fair one and I don't think questions are offensive in and of themselves, frankly. I mean, I think the question here is, as we get not just for Barack Obama, but as we get a generation of Black politicians who aspire to and have the capability to win statewide office or federal office, does that then become the same kind of pattern you saw in Italian politics, in Irish politics, in Jewish politics?

All of these things once existed and they were essentially subsumed into American politics and specifically into democratic politics and their politicians became politicians of a broader constituency and who could aspire to represent broader constituencies. That's the question we're asking.

I think it goes to the heart of what you all were just talking about because, if we are in a period then when African American politicians can aspire to statewide and federal office and to representing broader constituencies, then the role of those politicians - I think this is what Mayor Morial was hinting at - the role of those politicians and the role of civil rights leaders may diverge and it may be important to have both because it may be unreasonable to expect those politicians to fill the role of civil rights -

Tavis: - and that's what I was getting at by asking the question, is Obama the end of Black politics suggesting that it has to be either/or rather than both/and?

Bai: Well, I think you're always gonna have some and, but I do think what it may mean is that the principal representation to the Black community may not political. In other words, for a generation, for more than a generation, the main ambition for a talented African American politician was to be the big city mayor or a congressman.

I mean, look at a guy like James Clyburn, one of the most talented politicians of his generation in South Carolina, started the civil rights movement. You know, today, if he were young today, would he be immediately talked about as a senator, immediately talked about as a governor? But that wasn't the -

Morial: - I want to add something 'cause this is a very important thing. You know, when you look at the generation of African American mayors who got elected in the '70s, Tom Bradley was elected Mayor of Los Angeles in a majority White city. When my father was elected Mayor of New Orleans, New Orleans was a majority White city. When you look at a Maynard Jackson or even a Coleman Young, they had to assemble a multi-racial coalition in order to succeed.

Today, less than half of the members of the Black Caucus represent districts that are majority African American. So I think that, on a larger scale, Obama's candidacy seeks to do in a presidential election what many African American elected officials have done, running for mayor, running for Congress, running for many other posts. Now no doubt, when you look at City Council seats and State Legislative seats, you're gonna see that most African Americans may represent majority African American districts.

Look, the Mayor of Denver, Wellington Webb, good friend, strong leader, represented this city, was recognized as a national Black leader, representing a majority White city. The point I'm making is that Obama, I think, is operating at a much, much higher level, but there is some historical precedent to go back to history of memory.

Tavis: Dr. West?

West: No, but I think the reason why the question is problematic, though, Brother Matt, is one that we're all wrestling with how do we characterize this new historical era?

Bai: Right.

West: What is problematic for me about your question is why is it that, when we use categories - journalists are famous for this - of post-racial and colorblind and now end of Black politics, Black people have to do all the disappearing acts?

Bai: (Laughter).

West: No Black people, no Black politics, but Black suffering still in place. Well, something's going on. I would think the more appropriate question is this is the end of the southern strategy which appealed to White fears and anxieties by scapegoating Black people with busing, affirmative action, crime, welfare, a whole slew of issues that Reagan to Bush have been masterful at deploying and, therefore, what does the end of the southern strategy look like with the emergency of Obama as a candidate who still feels as if he got to stay on the tightrope?

He can't be too identified with Black people, characterized in part by what you were saying. We understand that, but if we don't understand that the best of Black history is in fact the Frederick Douglasses and the Martin Kings. Not because Black people have a monopoly on truth and justice, but because our movement has expanded democratic possibilities.

So in that regard, the southern strategy and its end is a much more fascinating way of characterizing the era than saying, "Black politics disappearing." Disappearing? White supremacy disappearing? No. Can it get a new form? Yes. Are we beating it back with Obama? Absolutely.

Bai: Right.

West: Let's celebrate that progress. But you see what I'm saying?

Bai: I do, but in fairness, Dr. West, I should point out -

West: - so you agree with me then?

Bai: Well, I agree with you in part, but -

West: - I like that (laughter).

Bai: I usually agree with you (laughter). But I have to point out in fairness that the piece itself, which was an 8,000 word cover, did delve into all of this. I mean, we're talking about the question it posed. But it did delve into the complications, the problems, of feeling that you're getting beyond race when in fact so many of the problems in the country disproportionately affect - as you all know better than I do - Black communities. So this is not an easy thing to take apart. This presents some deep conflicts.

Tavis: I wonder, Marc - I wonder whether or not it is possible that - a two-part question. One, whether it is possible that Mr. Obama or any Black candidate doing something historical of this nature, but let's talk about him since he's the star of the story.

Is it possible that any candidate like Mr. Obama could in fact have a campaign that takes advantage of Black voters because he knows that they're going to be there because of the historic nature, that he doesn't then have to address their issues in the way that someone else would have to address them and they have no place else to go? They're not going to [inaudible]. Is that possible?

Morial: I would presume that inside the inner counsels of his campaign that this is gonna be a continuing debate and a continuing discussion. How in fact you work, how in fact you play, how in fact you position yourself, and it's gonna be a continuing debate and continuing discussion because he's in a place where no one else has been.

Tavis: Absolutely.

Morial: And when you are a pioneer, you know, you have history, but you don't necessarily have precedent to look to. No one has been there and done it successfully or failed. Maybe you look at a Doug Wilder who became Governor of Virginia, maybe you look at a Deval Patrick who won. Maybe Obama has an opportunity to look at his senate election. But it is gonna be a continuing tightrope and certainly I think a reason for some continuing debate.

Here's what I think. The essence of the election is how many American voters, White voters particularly, do not see race as a disqualifying factor? See, what you do is, if it is not a disqualifying factor, what percentage of the electorate is not gonna say, "No matter what, I will not consider."? That is the bar that is so hard to measure in connection with this race.

The other thing is, I think that with an Obama or with a McCain or with any candidate, you look at not only how they conduct their campaign, but you look at where their public record has been. Have they been a supporter, for example, of the type of urban issues that the National Urban League champions? Or are they certainly a Johnny-come-lately to the cause or have they never been part of the cause?

So when you look at a candidate like an Obama or any other candidate, you want to look at what's the conduct and the emphasis of their campaign, but you also want to look at what their public history and record is in championing issues. That is what the voters' decision ought to be based on.

Tavis: Matt, let me ask you. While this was not the focus of your story that we referenced earlier, it was certainly a piece of the story and that is - this is my phrase and not yours - this new kind of Black politician. I'm talking now about an Obama. I'm talking now about a Deval Patrick. Talking about a Corey Booker in Newark and Arturo Davis in Alabama, some of the folk you had in your article. Is there a list of things, is there a profile, that you can help me understand that starts to fit this kind of new Black politician that Marc kind of referenced earlier?

Bai: Well, I think there is. I think it's hard to generalize and it's gonna get harder because we're gonna see more and more African American politicians running for large offices. But I do think, you know, as opposed to, say, a previous generation who largely came out of the civil rights movement or out of the churches, this is a generation that's generally been nurtured at universities, in elite universities. You got a couple of Road Scholars thrown in there.

This is a generation that did not experience the kind of overt racism that their fathers and their grandfathers experienced or their mothers and their grandmothers. I mean, when you talk about racism with these politicians, they experienced a kind of subtle racism from colleagues who reminded them that they weren't quite the same when they were at these elite universities or at these places.

But at the same time, you know, you have the sense that they've actually encountered in some cases more people who were overly solicitous of them because of their race than overt racists of the kind that you would have seen, you know, in the 1960s. So they have a different life experience and are much more comfortable in White institutions. They're much more comfortable among, you know, White colleagues and in serving White constituents and they have a very different view about race and racism and a much greater confidence that they can build the kind of coalitions -

Tavis: - I referenced earlier, Dr. West, that you have a new book coming out called "Hope on a Tightrope."

West: Yes.

Tavis: But the classic text that you wrote that we've all read, of course, is "Race Matters." I want to talk now about to what extent you think race does still matter and, particularly in this historic election, I wonder beyond that whether or not to your earlier formulation - this would conflict with what Marc Morial had to say - but I wonder whether or not your formulation is in fact holding Barack Obama to a higher race standard.

West: I don't think we ought to hold Barack. I don't think I do or you do or anybody else. I think that we start off with the premise that race matters, meaning that Black people count and Black suffering matters in America and the world. That's true for Brown, Red, Yellow and White too. But the history of America has been denial of Black people not counting, denial of Black suffering and misery. It doesn't have any weight.

So that as long as you proceed in that way, my theory is that in formulations, are we generating new forms of denial so we end up with Black politicians who are well-adjusted to White fears and anxieties, but fearful of Black desires to overcome misery, poverty and attempting the age-old quest for freedom? I don't think Barack does that. That's why I support the Brother (laughter).

But at the same time, if I see any element in his vision and in his practice that downplays that Black suffering and becomes more well-adjusted to a White interest and fears of a mainstream because that's the only way to get elected, I say is that a prudential move or is that an opportunistic move? The verdict's not yet out.

Morial: No.

Tavis: Before I go back to Marc, to your point now, let me follow up on this. What do you make of the fact - this is what I saw at least and maybe you all saw something different - but what I saw in this campaign, what I have seen so far in this campaign, is the media's exhaustion with this question about race except for ratings and revenue from time to time.

What I mean by their exhaustion with it, they were so quick in this campaign to embrace the language of post-racial, to embrace the language of race transcendence, to give us this new term, "the politics of grievance" as if Black folk are just whining about their condition. What's your take, Doc, on the language where race is concerned that we saw wholly and quickly embraced by the mainstream media?

West: One of the pillars of the southern strategy was to reduce Black grief to just a grievance. It was to reduce the wailing of a people to the whining of an interest group.

It was to trivialize the Black suffering in terms of dilapidated housing, disgraceful school systems, prison and industrial complex expanding, escalating welfare and equality and so forth. So that now that we might be moving out of this political ice age - I hope we are - I think and I pray that Brother Obama is the stirring of this transitional movement from this political ice age where it's fashionable to be indifferent to the most vulnerable and actually begin to target their needs and their interests.

But at the same time, I must say that it's gonna be a bumpy transition and we have to have folk who will at least try to tell the truth because, again, history and memory is crucial. Some of us are old-school enough to say, "We're gonna preserve the legacy of Martin Luther King and Fannie Lou no matter what."

Morial: This is why African American leadership never "transitions" from civil rights leaders and civil rights organizations to politicians, but that civil rights leaders and civil rights organizations are important and necessary -

West: - and we need a division of labor.

Morial: We need a [inaudible] of faith, rage, hold everyone accountable, to continue to work hard in communities.

West: Yes.

Morial: But I said this today earlier that I believe that, in the 21st century, a president can be a civil rights champion. Certainly Lyndon Johnson was.

West: Lyndon was. One hundred years yesterday, he was born.

Morial: A member of Congress can be a civil rights champion.

West: Yes, yes.

Morial: A business executive can be a civil rights champion. A university president can be a civil rights champion. I'm using the term "champion," not leader because that means that diversity, inclusion, economic opportunity is important. So I do not want civil rights, even in a 21st century contemporary fashion, to get narrowly circumscribed, defined, cubby-holed.

West: That's right.

Morial: Because if the last 40 years were important, it was to create a mainstream value that addressing this country's history of racial exclusion was important, necessary and important to the healing of the future of the nation.

Tavis: Let me ask you as a quick exit question. My time is just about up. I'll start with Matt here. I wonder whether or not, since you wrote the story on the end of politics, or is the possibility of it, I wonder very quickly whether or not the expectations of Black folk on Barack Obama are so high that they are ultimately going to get crushed because there really is no way that one guy can deliver on the historic expectation of this moment.

Bai: Well, I think there's some danger that he's never gonna make some people happy. Sure, there's gonna be a constituency that pushes him and pushes him, but that's sort of where I think you guys would agree that's where progress comes from. There's a pushing on one side and a politician goes as far as he can and everybody doesn't always walk away happy, but they often walk away with more progress than they had before. My guess is that that's the dynamic you'd be looking at.

Tavis: Dr. West?

West: Absolutely. I think it's important to keep in mind that 45 years ago yesterday, 14,700 people had been arrested. There were 786 demonstrations in 186 cities that culminated in a march on Washington. That's social movement. Politicians didn't react. They responded. You need both. That's the division of labor.

Tavis: Twenty seconds, Marc.

Morial: I think that anybody who's smart in politics today will promise meagerly and deliver extravagantly (laughter) as opposed to promising extravagantly and delivering meagerly.

Tavis: And delivering meagerly. And the church said amen on that point. Marc Morial, thank you; Dr. West, thank you. Matt Bai, nice to have you on as well.

Bai: Thank you, Tavis.

Tavis: My pleasure. That's our show and our week from here in Denver. I hope you'll join us next week from St. Paul, Minnesota for our coverage of the Republican National Convention. On Monday, my guests include former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich.