E-mail a friendZbigniew Brzezinski
airdate October 3, 2008
Zbigniew Brzezinski is one of the most respected figures in American foreign policy. He served as National Security Advisor to President Carter and, since leaving government, has been active as a consultant, teacher and writer. He's a counselor and trustee at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and foreign policy professor at Johns Hopkins University. A Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, Brzezinski's books include the New York Times best seller Second Chance and America and the World.
Former national security advisor talks about what the U.S. strategy has been and should be in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan. (3:07)
Full interview. (9:35)
Zbigniew Brzezinski
Tavis: Zbigniew Brzezinski served as National Security Advisor under President Jimmy Carter and was later awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He's also a best-selling author whose latest project is based on a series of conversations with former National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft. The book is called "America and the World: Conversations on the Future of American Foreign Policy." He joins us tonight from Washington. Mr. Brzezinski, nice to have you on the program, sir.
Zbigniew Brzezinski: It's good to be with you, Tavis.
Tavis: So what are you doing hanging out doing a book with a Republican like Brent Scowcroft?
Brzezinski: (Laughter) We're trying to save the republic. We can't do it alone. (Laughter)
Tavis: Tell me where the idea for a book like this comes from? It's a fascinating concept.
Brzezinski: Well, it comes basically from two ideas. One, that the United States is not doing well, that in fact its position in the world is deteriorating and that we have made some very important mistakes.
And the second idea is that the only way to correct this, to get things right, is to rekindle bipartisanship and to define a policy that's responsive to the historical moment. So Brent who is a Republican and I, a Democrat, joined forces to see if we can do that by talking to each other.
Tavis: Do you have any reason to believe that in Washington now or after the election of the next president that that's possible, that notion of bipartisanship on foreign policy? Because as I watched this presidential debate last week, the first one, I didn't get any sense of that.
Brzezinski: Well, I happen to know that Obama, for one, is quite prepared to seek bipartisanship on foreign policy and I know he has some support from distinguished Republicans, so I'm reasonably confident that he will do that.
I'm a little less certain about McCain because McCain seems to embrace so much of President Bush's unilateralism, his very kind of hard-nosed, tough, unyielding and almost antagonistic hostility to many problems in the world, so I think it will be more difficult for McCain to pursue genuinely a bipartisan foreign policy.
Tavis: Whether it's McCain or Obama, has the damage - to your point now, whether McCain or Obama wins, has the damage done to our standing around the world by the Bush administration, is that damage irreparable?
Brzezinski: I think it's very, very far-reaching and quite ominous. I still think it is reparable. That is to say, there is a president who first of all understands how much the world has changed. Secondly, who's credible, who presents a face to the world that the world would like to see in America, an America that is optimistic, open and engaging, a president who's prepared to cooperate with other countries.
I think such a president can repair a great deal of America's standing in the world, last but not least, because the world needs such an America.
Tavis: Speaking of the world, you and Mr. Scowcroft happen to be, obviously, two white males and Barack Obama not a white male. How much advantage do you think, if any, that we would have by having a president for the first time around the world, that is, being seen by the world who happens not to be a white male?
Brzezinski: I think it would show to the world that America is colorblind, that we choose the best. That's the criteria I would use in making our choices. I think it would be a wonderful testimonial to the world, telling the world that America is truly what it pretends to be, a country which is open to all and in which anyone who is an American can strive to be the best.
Tavis: Do you think in that first debate Obama acquitted himself with regard to his ability to understand and to relate to and to prove to the American public that he knows what he's talking about on foreign policy?
Brzezinski: I think so. I think the debate was close. You know, if you were scoring it on points, probably the outcome was almost close to a tie. But the fact is that most Americans thought that Obama won and that is very important because it shows that most Americans concluded that he is presidential.
Tavis: Back to this issue of bipartisanship that you raised earlier, speaking of Obama. Should Obama win - you talk about this in the text; you make the case for this - how important would it be and do you think he's open to the notion of putting some Republicans in the Cabinet in some key positions? Would that effort be important and do you think he's open to that?
Brzezinski: I think it would be very important. My sense is that he would be open to it, although I don't speak for him. But, look, he's serious about bipartisanship and, since he's serious about bipartisanship, you have to ask, "What does it take to promote bipartisanship?"
It clearly means involving the other side in the political process in decision-making, in being advisors to the president. So I feel fairly confident that he would reach out and try to engage and mobilize some leading American Republicans to work with him.
Tavis: Because there is such a divide in Washington, as you well know, on foreign policy issues, tell me where this notion of bipartisanship is concerned where you see the common ground vis-à-vis issues.
Brzezinski: I think there are a number of people who see eye to eye with Obama on the broad issues. Namely, we need to talk to countries. We need to avoid militarizing the problems of the Middle East and specifically the conflicts in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We need to have a serious discourse with Europeans about sharing decisions, but also burdens. We need to have a dialogue with the Chinese.
We need to suck Russia into the international system so that it becomes a more constructive participant. We need to address the global problems in equality, social injustice, deprivation or the climate, environment. I think there are a number of Republicans who understand that these are the issues of this century.
Tavis: I mentioned earlier and everybody knows, of course, that you worked for Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter, to his great credit, achieved much with regard to the Middle East. Begin and Sadat, how could we ever forget that? Tell me what the Bush administration has not done with regard to the Middle East and what could be accomplished there in the Middle East if we embraced your notion of bipartisanship on those tricky and thorny issues.
Brzezinski: Well, we have sat on our hands for the last several years on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. The president has made a lot of noise about the peace process, but he hasn't done anything to push it forward. We know from experience that, unless the Israelis and the Palestinians are helped from the outside and encouraged and also pushed from the outside, they'll never resolve this problem themselves.
On Iraq, the president doesn't know how to end that war. I think we have to end it. It's costing us too much. We have spent more on that war than the entire bail-out package that is being discussed today and which is so difficult to finance. We run the risk of getting more deeply involved in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I think we have to think very hard about these issues and I think the next president will have to address them uppermost on his agenda.
Tavis: Let me ask you about a couple of countries specifically that you've raised now. Because in Afghanistan, as you know, we ran into Afghanistan and then ran out to go to Iraq and now Afghanistan has blown up in our face again. What ought we do now specifically with regard to Afghanistan?
Brzezinski: I would say in a very simple and short formula, rather than militarizing the problem, we should politicize the problem. We're putting in more and more troops. I agree that some more troops perhaps may be necessary, but we already have close to 60,000 troops in Afghanistan and the conflict with the Taliban is getting worse.
We have to recognize the fact that the solution in Afghanistan has come by accommodation, a decentralized accommodation with the various forces in Afghanistan, and that cannot be achieved by the force of arms. The Afghans simply don't like foreigners with guns in their country and, if we're simply going to try to crush the Taliban, we'll probably have an escalating guerilla war that spreads gradually, but visibly so already, to Pakistan.
Tavis: Iran?
Brzezinski: Iran, we have to give negotiations a fair shake. We haven't tried to negotiate. We have said to the Iranians, "We'll only negotiate with you if you make a concession on the central issue of such negotiations before the negotiations begin." Well, that's not a serious way to negotiate.
Tavis: And finally, on Pakistan?
Brzezinski: Pakistan, I think we have to be very clear to the Pakistanis that we want them to do what they can and they should be doing more to crush Al Qaeda. But we also have to realize that Pakistan is very vulnerable, very tense and, if we get engaged in military skirmishes with the Pakistanis inside Pakistan, we'll get sucked into Pakistan's problems. Bear in mind, that's 170 million people. If we get involved in that, we're going to be stuck for years and years and years to come.
Tavis: Former National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, has a new book along with Brent Scowcroft. The book is called "America and the World: Conversations on the Future of American Foreign Policy." Nice to have you on, sir, and all the best to you. Thanks for the text.
Brzezinski: All the best to you, Tavis. Thanks a lot.
Tavis: Thank you.
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