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• "The Joy of Dustin"
• "PODCAST: Dustin Hoffman looks back on his career"
• Last Chance Harvey
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Tavis plays an outtake of the Academy Award-winning actor interrupting his interview with Michael Phelps. (3:50)
 

Full interview. (23:27)
 

Tavis: Five years ago we wrapped our first season here on PBS with a memorable conversation with guess who - Dustin Hoffman. It was actually, well, like two memorable conversations, because once we got started there was no way our conversation would fit into just one show.

So we re-racked, as they say in the business, and taped another show. So Dustin Hoffman was and still is the only guest on this show to come on to do one show that turned into two, and tonight I'm delighted to begin our sixth season here on PBS, and I'm pleased to welcome the acting legend back to this program.

I don't know what this conversation will turn into, (laughs) but he has a remarkable film resume. At the top of the show, including "Midnight Cowboy." This year marks its 40th anniversary. His latest project is called "Last Chance Harvey," which is now in limited release with more theaters on the way. Here now a scene from "Last Chance Harvey."

[Clip]

Tavis: So I saw Jim Brolin, the camera went past him, who, of course, is the husband of your friend Barbra Streisand. So the last time I saw you on this program, at least, you were here talking about "Meet the Fockers," where you played opposite Ms. Streisand. And now you're with Jim Brolin.

Dustin Hoffman: Yes.

Tavis: Is there some connection here that I should -

Hoffman: Well, I could say we've both been to bed with the same woman, but it wouldn't be true. (Laughter) I did go with her roommate when we started acting and we were all 18 years old. Yeah, her roommate and I hung out.

Tavis: This is a delightful film.

Hoffman: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Tavis: Delightful film. Before I get to the film, though, let me just - we, a few months ago - what's - this is January, so -

Hoffman: Happy New Year.

Tavis: Thank you, Happy New Year to you. In September we celebrated our 1,000th episode, so the story I told a moment ago, we put that into the 1,000th episode because that was such a memorable moment for us. You came here for a 15-minute conversation and it turned into two shows.

Hoffman: Yes. I didn't know it was 15 minutes. Sometimes the PR people, they try to intimidate you. (Laughter) I'll do - how many shows have you done all - in one day?

Tavis: The most in one day, 10. Yeah, 10 shows in a day.

Hoffman: That's almost as much as a hooker. (Laughter)

Tavis: And I make less. But that's another conversation, though. So, "Last Chance Harvey." Tell me about it.

Hoffman: Well, what you just saw is a wedding reception for my daughter in the film, and he's estranged from his daughter, and this is the first time they've had any real contact in a few years. And I had - the interesting - well, you want to know about the film.

The film is simply a guy who is a jazz pianist who somehow has to demean himself by writing jingles, TV jingles, and for years because he's not good enough to be a jazz pianist. And I really took that from myself, because that's what I wanted to be.

Tavis: We'll talk about that.

Hoffman: And he's not married - he's stuck, and he doesn't know he's stuck, and he's at least middle-aged. And he goes to London to go to his daughter's wedding, who he hasn't really spoken to for a few years, and meets by chance Emma Thompson, and she's stuck, too. So it is kind of - it's a romantic film for, I guess you could say, boomers - for people that aren't in their 20s or 30s. Or 40s.

Tavis: You know this business better than most, and before I come back to the jazz story you told a moment ago and the connection to your own life, when you walk into a room to, as they say in this business, pitch a project like this, a romantic story for boomers, if you're not Dustin Hoffman, do you get laughed out of the room in Hollywood?

Hoffman: Oh, you wouldn't even probably - I wouldn't probably even get in the room. They'd want to know ahead of time. We didn't pitch this. Emma and I did a film together called "Stranger than Fiction." We had just two scenes together - gee, let's make a whole movie.

A year later she calls me and says her friend Joel Hopkins, who wrote and directed this, had written this, had us in mind, and somehow they got Overture, this company, and they just did a wonderful film called "Jenkins?"

Female: Yes, yeah.

Tavis: "The Visitor."

Hoffman: "The Visitor." This is, like, their third film, and I guess they're out to do adventurous films for very little money, which is what we do. We did this all on the streets of London. But somehow, that pitching took place before. I can't pitch, and pitching - I always think the films that are easiest to pitch are somehow the less interesting.

How would you pitch "Rain Man?" We called it two schmucks in a car. That's all it is. (Laughter) But it's true, so I don't - but they set this film up somehow.

Tavis: Let me ask that question another way.

Hoffman: Go ahead.

Tavis: What's attractive to you these days, in terms of roles -

Hoffman: I think you look great.

Tavis: Well, thank - (Laughter)

Hoffman: I mean, I'm not kidding. You have gotten more handsome in the past (unintelligible). (Laughter)

Tavis: That's why I love Dustin Hoffman. This may be three shows. If he keeps talking like that, especially, I may give the guy a whole week. That's another issue, though. Script-wise, what gets your attention these days?

Hoffman: Just a creative experience, because I used to - when I was younger, I had more control in the sense that leads are written for guys in their 20s, in their 30s, 40s. After that, you're kind of playing supporting parts. And if you want to do a lead, you have to pretty much develop it yourself, unless you're a gun guy. Unless you're an action star, which I've never been able to enter the ranks of.

Tavis: You ever tried carrying a gun in a movie?

Hoffman: "Little Big Man." I wore a gun, yeah, a couple times, but it's not my thing. Anyway, the question was - I know there was a question. (Laughter)

Tavis: You're going to work it out - I'm going to see if you can work it out.

Hoffman: Let me see if I can do it. Okay, the question was, yes, you - what attracts me to it. Oh, so -

Tavis: Yeah, you got it.

Hoffman: Thank you.

Tavis: Yeah. (Laughter) You still got it, man.

Hoffman: Thank you.

Tavis: You still got it. (Laughter)

Hoffman: So now I - because I can't say, "Okay, I want to do this script over that script," because I used to have a plethora of material offered to me, now I'm basically going to take only that which I think I can have a creative experience at. And after all these years of making film, I realize that you can't - it's like roulette. You can't out-guess anybody. Every film starts out at a disadvantage that it's going to flop. Statistically, they do.

Tavis: That's a fascinating way to look at it. I never thought about it that way.

Hoffman: Yeah, everybody tries hard to be ready with a great film, and the rushes are terrific, and you have first-rate people and crew and cast and everything, and yet whether it takes off like an airplane or it just stays on the tarmac is ultimately, I think, just stardust.

Tavis: If it's just stardust, Dustin, does that mean that you never, then, take personally the stuff that doesn't take off? You're satisfied with the work that you do once you leave the set, and whether it becomes a hit or a flop doesn't much matter to you? Can I take that to mean that, if it's just stardust?

Hoffman: No, no, because you're trying to beat the odds. If you go to the crap table, or - I don't even know how to play craps. I have to learn one day, it's very complicated.

Tavis: Yeah? I don't know how to play, either.

Hoffman: I don't, either. (Laughter) But roulette - you do want to win, and I always think making a movie that if the people around you, the power structure, the executives that always come on the set that's putting the money up, the director, the producer.

If they have a sense of what's working as opposed to what's not working - because many times they BS themselves - "Hey, it's great -" and you just know that you're dead in the water before the first week is out. And I know if a picture is not going to work if it's not being looked at honestly.

But if it is being looked at honestly - in other words, this is working; that's not working, you know what I mean? Because you don't bat - it's baseball. You hit two out of five, it's good. So you have good days and bad days.

So if people are working honestly and intelligently, then you have a shot, and then you just work - in fact, with Michael Phelps, I think we were talking to him, what makes the difference of him winning by what is it? That?

Tavis: One-hundredth of a second, yeah.

Hoffman: The guy that comes in second is pretty good, and yet he's lost. So I think that somehow, whatever Phelps says he's doing - the kick-off or the - what'd he say, the walls?

Tavis: The wall when he flips, exactly.

Hoffman: So somehow, we are all - well, at least I am - trying to break out, to do that thing, and all you can go by is yourself, basically. And I'm very hard to satisfy. Is it funny to me? Is it moving to me? Does it interest me? I just have my own point of view. I think I go to the movies and I look at people watching and not watching, and saying, "You want some popcorn," and getting up. And I'm saying, "Can I make a movie to stop them from doing that? Can I hold them?"

Tavis: I want to - there's a Michael Phelps clip I want to play here in just a second, Jonathan. It's very funny.

Hoffman: Please. I shouldn't have brought it up.

Tavis: I'm glad you brought it up.

Hoffman: Oh, okay.

Tavis: It's a great segue. Dustin Hoffman referenced Michael Phelps, the Olympic gold medalist - eight-time Olympic gold medalist - last summer alone. I want to play a conversation I had with Phelps back in December in just a second. But I'm getting older and I don't want to forget this question; it's very important to me, and I'll come back to the clip in a second.

To the point you make now, have you ever been - you were talking about the fact that movies definitely don't work if the people who are in charge aren't being honest about what they're doing on a - as they shoot the thing.

Hoffman: Yes, every day they say, "Oh, the rushes are great, the rushes are great." It doesn't mean anything. They'd better be great, because that has nothing to do with whether the movie's going to make it or not.

Tavis: Got it. So when you're on a film - not when, have you ever been on a film where you knew, to your earlier point, a week or so in, this thing sucks, it's not going to work, it's a flop. If you've been in that situation, as an actor who I know is so dedicated to his craft, how do you process your way through the rest of that shoot?

Hoffman: I fight. And for a short period of time, get a bad reputation. I say, "What's the matter with you guys? Come on; why are you kidding yourself?" Not that - you know the second, third day.

Tavis: You know that early on?

Hoffman: Oh, sure. Because every - let's say, give or take, it's two hours. You have to be perfect. That's what you're going for, is to be perfect for two hours, and you're going to shoot 10, 12, 14 weeks to be perfect for two hours.

So there's nothing - and I'm saying after all these years some of the executives don't understand how important it is to try to be flawless. That one thing, you take an audience out of that movie - in other words, you're trying to rivet them, and they're watching, and suddenly you do one thing where they're taken out, it's very hard to bring them back. And it's that one mistake, it's like you lose air. It's like they say in painting - I don't paint. Do you paint?

Tavis: Mm-mmm.

Hoffman: They say in painting if you make a wrong stroke, I've heard a painter say you collapse the canvas. And you can do that in a movie, and they don't think that way. I know if I - I remember when I saw "The Godfather," after I got over being jealous of Al Pacino, I realized, (laughter) I said - I walked out and they said, "That movie was almost two hours and 50 minutes." I said, "What?" Because it was like that and that's what you want, you want to -

Tavis: That rivet.

Hoffman: I think so. Just like your show here. No one's going to turn this channel.

Tavis: Not while you're on.

Hoffman: Not while you're on.

Tavis: Not while you're on.

Hoffman: Not while you're on.

Tavis: And not while I'm playing a clip of a cameo that - so in December I had the honor of having Michael Phelps come on this program, and so Phelps and I - well, you'll see this, but Phelps and I are in the middle of a conversation and something strange sort of happens on the floor in front of us as he and I are conversing. So just play this. Give me some audio, Jonathan.

[Clip]

Michael Phelps: Eggs, cereal, whatever I feel like eating. When I'm - (laughter).

Tavis: Do you know who this is? Can you see this?

Phelps: Oh my God. (Laughter)

Tavis: That's Dustin Hoffman.

Phelps: He looked familiar as soon as he took a breath. (Laughter) I was like -

Dustin Hoffman: Did it work?

Tavis: Hey Dustin, come here. Just come here, just come here.

Hoffman: (Unintelligible.)

Tavis: Just come here, no, just -

Hoffman: (Unintelligible.)

Tavis: Dustin Hoffman, Michael Phelps.

Hoffman: We've met - how are you?

Phelps: Yeah, how are you? Good, good.

Hoffman: Nuts.

Tavis: How are you, sir?

Hoffman: How are you?

Tavis: Have a seat on the edge of that chair right there for a second, Dustin. Just sit on the edge there. How are you?

Hoffman: I'm good.

Tavis: Did you watch the Olympics this summer?

Hoffman: No. (Laughter) When was it?

[End clip]

Tavis: That was hilarious.

Hoffman: Now, that's an example. I would have asked for a reshoot if that was a movie, because it wasn't lit bright enough. (Laughter) No offense to these guys. And I would have said, "I should have kicked earlier."

Tavis: Yeah. And it was still funny.

Hoffman: Okay.

Tavis: What they can't see in that clip is that when you sat on the edge of this chair here and we had to wrap the show, you and Phelps and I had continued - we had some ongoing conversation. And I literally marveled at you because you were asking him some really, really good questions, and I'm thinking why didn't I ask Phelps that during the conversation.

Your questions were really good. You've always been - I know in our own private conversation you're such an inquisitive guy, such a curious guy. You're always asking questions. Have you always been that way, and why are you that way?

Hoffman: Well, I've always been that way, but you're no different, so I can ask you the same. Why have you - I think we may have talked about this once. Why have you - you're either are or you're not. I'm always into someone, the first thing - by the way, I came by that day because we had a date to go to the basketball game.

Tavis: That's right. The Laker game, exactly right.

Hoffman: It's so interesting to meet someone that you've never met before, because - for me it is, because the odds against it are astronomical. It's like being in an elevator. People get on an elevator, they've never been together before, and it's six and a half billion people in the world. And they're going to get off the elevator and never see each other again.

Tavis: Yeah, exactly.

Hoffman: And what do we do? We all look at the ground. We don't make contact because we're too - it's an animal thing, I think. It's like we're inadvertently past the barrier of each other's space. We have a certain natural space, but now we're in the other person's space, so we do this.

And I always want to say, "God, the odds against us" - to everybody. We never - six and a half billion; here we are for a few seconds, and then we're gone. And to me, it's truly exciting to meet people that you've never met, because the odds are against it.

And I want to know where they're from, where they grew up, what their parents did, what made them decide what they wanted to do and how early was it. It's just natural stuff.

Tavis: When you become the Academy Award winner and the star that you are, you're not supposed to be that open with just everyday people. You're not supposed to have that kind of attitude.

Hoffman: I always did. I always - even before I could get away with it. (Laughter)

Tavis: I love how you spun that; that was beautiful.

Hoffman: Ten kids?

Tavis: Yeah.

Hoffman: You came from 10 kids - I remember.

Tavis: One of 10, one of 10. You got a good memory. I saw you some months ago at the AFI tribute to Warren Beatty.

Hoffman: Yes.

Tavis: Yeah.

Hoffman: I didn't know you were - did I see you?

Tavis: Yeah. I didn't get a chance to speak to you. I saw you on stage, and I was still way up and you were down front. Warren invited me and then gave me a seat way up there.

Hoffman: But now that Obama's president, they won't put you in the kitchen anymore.

Tavis: I hope not. I hope not.

Hoffman: No, it won't happen again.

Tavis: Let's hope not.

Hoffman: That day is gone.

Tavis: From your mouth to God's ears. So I saw you at the AFI tribute to Beatty, and it made me think. And I went back and did some research on this, and I wish I had been at yours. But after you - my seat might have been better. Thanks, Warren. After you received the AFI Lifetime Achievement award, you get this huge award by all of your peers and then you disappear, basically, for three years from the acting scene.

Hoffman: Yes.

Tavis: Why? And why'd you come back? I'm glad you did, but what happened?

Hoffman: Well, it was coincidental in the sense that I was doing a film just before I got that award, and for the first time in my life I was on my way to work, the usual 5:30, 6:00 in the morning. And I could see the sound stage - actually, it was a converted warehouse - and I started to just get this horrible feeling in my stomach that that's where I had to spend the next 14 hours.

And I couldn't believe that I had that feeling, because I used to always get goosebumps, because that's what I love about, and always did love, about my work, is that you get to spend the whole day doing what you love.

And I didn't like the work I was doing, and I hadn't liked the work I was doing for the last couple of films. And I guess part of it I felt was based on the fact that the material wasn't interesting that was being offered, so either I had the choice to work on stuff I didn't really respect, or not work at all.

And then I just said, "That's it." And I think it connected itself to the fact that it was called a lifetime achievement award, because somehow I went home and I had my first panic attack. I never understood what that - did you ever have one?

Tavis: Oh, Lord, no.

Hoffman: But you've heard of them.

Tavis: Yeah, I heard -

Hoffman: They're extraordinary. It's like an animal's inside you, just ripping you apart. You want to just jump out a window. It is extraordinarily painful. It's physical. I always said, "What is that? What are people talking about?" And -

Tavis: You were depressed about the award?

Hoffman: Past depressed.

Tavis: Past depressed.

Hoffman: Because somehow, I didn't know what the reason was, but I did go into therapy - best thing I ever did - and I learned that somehow it meant that I had - I have to be careful, sometimes I talk like I'm still on the couch so I have to realize everybody's watching this, so how much I'm going to share. (Laughter)

Tavis: Please share, it's great for ratings. What's on your mind, Dustin? (Laughter) Talk to Tavis, yeah.

Hoffman: Basically it was I felt, I guess underneath, I had not - that award means you've lived a lifetime. And I felt I hadn't lived anywhere near a lifetime, and I was - I didn't respect myself or what I was doing. And I just - Nicholson won it, and he said a great thing after he got it. I remember a sentence he said. He said, "You ain't seen nothing yet."

And that's what you feel like, because it shouldn't be called that - lifetime achievement award. It sounds like it's eulogy time.

Tavis: You're done, yeah.

Hoffman: It should be called, like, menopause or something. (Laughter) You're in the middle.

Tavis: I'd take that, I'd take that. Yeah, I'd take that. So what got you back out?

Hoffman: My wife came up to me and said, "Do you realize you've been wearing a cardigan sweater?" You know those button things? She says, "For about two and a half years now. You'd better go to work." And I thought -

Tavis: So you were doing your Mr. Rogers?

Hoffman: Yes, actually, because my kids were going to be - that was the rationalization I gave myself; because they were going to be graduating high school and they were going to be going off to college, and I said, "I want to stay with my kids, and I'll just write." But I was frozen, which is what I picked for this film. Because Emma and I both had some - I'm not trying to segue back.

Tavis: No, please - that's a beautiful segue.

Hoffman: But we're both playing stuck characters, and you're just stuck. That happens, I think, to everyone, I would guess, in life, that you look back and you say, "I was kind of stuck during that period," and you don't know it at the time. But I asked the director if we could make my character, base it on someone who's stuck.

And the reason we picked jingles is because - jingle-writing - is because he wanted to be a jazz pianist, and now he's doing something that's so demeaning. And what's interesting about jingles, because I researched it a little bit, is that jingles, commercials, they're not - and I say some of the lines in the movie that the guy told me that was a jingle - they're not what they used to be. Do you know any jingle from a commercial with lyrics that you can sing?

Tavis: Contemporary?

Hoffman: Yes.

Tavis: No.

Hoffman: That's what I mean.

Tavis: I got a bunch of old ones, though.

Hoffman: That, because - and so that was the point. They stopped doing that some time in the '80s. So guys who do jingles don't even have that part of the art form.

Tavis: And why did they stop doing that? Because I can think - right now, I could give you - I could start singing jingles right now.

Hoffman: Go on.

Tavis: Libby's, Libby's, Libby's on the label, label, label, you can eat it, eat it, eat it on the table, table - I could do this all day long.

Hoffman: By the way, I got sent a DVD - you could cut this part out if you don't like it - I got sent a DVD of Tim Robbins' birthday, because I had said happy birthday to him, and you had, too.

Tavis: Yes, yes. Did they cut me out?

Hoffman: The opposite.

Tavis: Oh.

Hoffman: Because you're so distinguished in your show. But I do believe you're singing Motown, big time.

Tavis: Yes, I was.

Hoffman: Yes. And I think at some point - it doesn't have to be this show - but the audience should see that side of you. (Laughter)

Tavis: You know what?

Hoffman: Do you remember the song?

Tavis: Yeah, we ain't going to talk about that. (Laughter) As a matter of fact -

Hoffman: I thought, oh my God, is that the serious Mr. Smiley?

Tavis: Yeah, I think it's official now - Dustin Hoffman will not be getting two shows this time. We're going to wrap right about here, because I'm afraid of where this conversation will go if I do what I did last time and re-rack and tape another show. So Dustin Hoffman, goodbye. (Laughter)

Hoffman: Two jokes?

Tavis: Yes, please.

Hoffman: Knock, knock.

Tavis: Who's there?

Hoffman: Control freak.

Tavis: Control -

Hoffman: Control freak who? (Laughter) It's not bad.

Tavis: That was - (laughter).

Hoffman: That's every producer you ever met.

Tavis: Is that it? You got something else?

Hoffman: No, keep talking; I'll remember the second one. (Laughs)

Tavis: The movie - while he's thinking of his last joke, the movie is "Last Chance Harvey," starring the great Dustin Hoffman, alongside Emma Thompson, who will be on this program in the next week or two, I think. Emma Thompson coming to see us as well, so we're at two shout-outs for "Last Chance Harvey." And Harvey, this is your last chance.

Hoffman: Damn

Tavis: Do you recall the joke?

Hoffman: No, God.

Tavis: Okay, well -

Hoffman: Wait, it's a good joke.

Tavis: (Laughter) Apparently not that good.

Hoffman: Just - just - you know. I've got to get it.

Tavis: While he's - that's our show for tonight, while he's thinking.

Hoffman: It's such a good joke.

Tavis: Catch me on the weekends on PRI, Public Radio International. You can access our radio podcast through our website at PBS.org. I'll see you back here next time on PBS. Until then, good night from Los Angeles, thanks for watching, and keep the faith.

Hoffman: Faith. And I can't remember it.

Tavis: Goodbye. See you tomorrow night. (Laughter)

[Clip]