E-mail a friendDaniel Ayalon
airdate January 6, 2009
When he was Israel's Ambassador to the U.S., Daniel Ayalon helped develop the strong relationship between the two countries. He played a leading role in the negotiations for the Roadmap to Peace and Israel's disengagement plan. Ayalon has also served as foreign policy advisor to several of his country's prime ministers. Before entering foreign service, the Tel Aviv native was an executive in an international trading company. Ayalon co-chairs the Jerusalem-based aliya organization, Nefesh B'Nefesh.
Former ambassador predicts many more years of bloodshed unless Hamas stops attacking Israeli civilians. (2:56)
Full interview. (12:44)
Daniel Ayalon
Tavis: The 11th day in the deadly conflict between Israel and Hamas saw no let-up today, as reports indicated Israeli troops moving further into the Hamas-controlled area of Gaza. Also today, numerous Hamas-fired rockets continued to strike southern Israel, including one that hit just 20 miles from Tel Aviv.
For more on the latest developments, I am joined from Tel Aviv tonight by Ambassador Daniel Ayalon, Israel's former ambassador to the United States. Ambassador Ayalon served as a member in a number of key positions in the Israeli government, and is a former captain in the Israeli military. Mr. Ambassador, nice to have you on the program tonight from Tel Aviv.
Daniel Ayalon: Thank you. Good to be here with you.
Tavis: Let me start by going at it in a right and direct way. It is day 11 and many people are starting to ask how much is too much, how much is enough, and what is the end game here?
Ayalon: Well, I would start from the last part of your question. The end game is to stop any terror from the Gaza strip by Hamas, but not just that - to impose a new regime with supervision, verifiable supervision, so that Hamas will not be able to smuggle illegally any more explosives or rockets and terrorists, including al Qaeda terrorists, which also infiltrate into Gaza.
This is the end game now. The means to do it, of course, is with a continuing military pressure on Hamas command and control, on its military commanders, and of course its political leadership as well.
Tavis: I don't think anyone denies the right of Israel to exist as a state, but you well know that this is not the first time we've had conversations about proportionality or the lack thereof. So let me just ask you, is it too much at this point?
Ayalon: Well, I would say proportionality is the wrong way to look at it. If we look back at World War II, at the war against the Nazis or the war against al Qaeda, is there proportionality there? Should we act like them? Proportionality would be to really target civilians and only civilians with randomly killing children and aiming at kindergartens. This is what they're doing.
They have been subjecting one million Israeli citizens on our southern territory, southern borders, to this terror for more than eight years now, and it's time to say enough is enough. And there is no tit for tat here, because so long as they continue with their terrorism, as long as they continue with this defiance, it is serving their extreme purposes and ideology.
And here, I think it is important for everyone to understand that this is not just a war between Palestinians and Israelis, not just a war between Hamas terrorists, extreme Islamist against Jews. It is a war of ideologies between extreme Islam and the free world, and we are here at the trenches, we are here at the front line.
So it has to finish decisively so terrorism doesn't spread and being used against American targets, Europeans, and everywhere in the globe.
Tavis: You said, Mr. Ambassador, that this is not tit for tat. I'm not sure that everybody sees it that way, outside of the Middle East, at least, but I hear your point. I hear your point and I accept your point that this is not tit for tat. I guess the question on the heels of that comment is whether or not you think that this fight is a fair fight. Is this a fair fight? Is being fair in war - ought it be an issue?
Ayalon: Yes, absolutely. A fair fight is very important, but this is not a fair fight. But it is not a fair fight against Israel, because what the Hamas terrorists do is that they position themselves specifically and very maliciously in and among populated areas. They use Palestinians as human shields, and they target, on the other hand, only civilian targets in Israel.
They hit kindergartens, they hit school classes, and the only reason we do not incur more casualties as we already had is because Israeli schoolboys and girls and kindergarten kids do not go to schools because of the possibility of them getting killed.
On the other hand, we're trying to be very, very precise in pinpointing only the terrorists, although sometimes it is very, very difficult as they put themselves in very dense, populated areas.
So it is not fair, and the fairness goes against Israel, unfortunately. And it is time for all of us to really not just condemn Hamas and the other Islamist terrorists, but also to make clear to them that responsibility for all casualties, whether it's on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, is theirs, and their responsibility alone.
And then I believe it's the only way in the future to stop their appetite in continuing the terror.
Tavis: I think it's fair to say, Mr. Ambassador, that the calls continue to grow. The voices grow more loud every day condemning the terrorism of Hamas, but I think it's also fair to say that we hear more calls every day for a ceasefire, which Israel, at the moment, at least, has not acceded to. How long should, how long is it advisable, for Israel to ignore calls around the world for a ceasefire here?
Ayalon: Well, it is unfortunate that all these calls for ceasefires were not around in the last almost eight years when randomly Israeli cities, peaceful cities, received all these Qassam launches just at the will and the vagaries of the Hamas terrorists.
So now, well, I would say Israel would be willing, near as I can tell, to cease the fire any time, so long as Hamas stops their launching. And they keep launching, still, between 30 and 50 rockets a day, and they have not accepted and they are not willing to stop the rockets. I think this is an obvious condition before any ceasefire from Israel.
And secondly, they must agree to stop violating and smuggling weapons and terrorists into Gaza. If they do not accept it now, when they are under duress and under stress, then they will never accept it and there will never be peace and stability in the Middle East.
So now is the time, really, to call this together, for the international community to really put the pressure on Hamas. And I believe that there is a unique opportunity now, because there is a real convergence of interests, not just of Israel and the free world and of course the United States, but also of the moderate Sunni Arab regimes in the area which do not want to see Hamas getting stronger.
They do not want to see the expansion of Iranians' influence. And Hamas, as we know now, has been supported mostly by Iran, mostly by Hizbullah, and actually, they used the last six months of what is called the quiet time, which was supposed to be quiet, to really re-arm themselves to the teeth with Iranian missiles.
And I can tell you that before six months ago they had missiles which could reach only 10 miles. Today, as you mentioned, they can reach 30 and 40 miles, and this has to stop.
Tavis: The election of Hamas in Palestine, as you know, was celebrated by this White House. This government, our government - sitting government at the moment, at least - called for democratic elections in that territory; there were democratic elections, if we can use that word.
Hamas was elected, and I guess what I'm getting at here is if the generations that are coming along in Palestine are to be democratically elected and to be inclined in the years ahead to find a peaceful solution with Israel, how do we convince those future democratically elected people that the road is peace when they grow up under this kind of terror?
Ayalon: Well, this is really a challenge, because this was not really democratic elections. It was elections by the gun, and I have never seen anywhere, there were no precedents of a - I would say an illegal, armed element and terrorists running to elections. It wasn't done in Iraq after the war there, it wasn't done on Kosovo. Only here, and it was unfortunate, and it was a mistake.
Now, how do we go about peace? I would say that Israel has done its max. In 2005, Israel, in an excruciatingly painful experience, we uprooted 8,000 Israelis who lived in 23 communities, three generations in Gaza. We uprooted and left everything, to the last inch of Gaza.
And the idea was for the Palestinian to have Gaza as a showcase that they can govern themselves without terror, with transparency, with accountability, with the rule of law, and there is no pretext of quote, unquote, "occupation," because we are not there. We left to the last grain of sand over there three years ago.
And what we received in return is terror. This is very unfortunate. And unless and until the Palestinian leadership will not only stop the terror but also will stop the incitement, will recognize Israel, will recognize previous agreements and will stop the violence and most importantly teach and educate the new generations that coexistence should be the norm, until and unless they do it I see many more years of bloodshed.
And here, I think, again, the international community has a big role so far as there is no unity, there is no one demand from everybody for them to stop the terror, then we have a problem. And I hope this will be the case, as I think it's interest of everybody, against Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, and Hamas.
Tavis: Let me ask you right quick - my time is up here, but I want to ask right quick, since you used the word "psychological" earlier in this conversation, if it is true that this war cannot be won militarily, then it really is a war, essentially, of psychology. How do you ever decide who wins a war that is based on psychology, since nobody can win militarily?
Ayalon: Well, I'll tell you here again, we are at a disadvantage. Because this war could be won militarily very easily if we were just firing at all the places where we are fired against, where we know that they are based. But that would cause such collateral damage that Israel, as a democratic country, as a decent country, cannot tolerate.
So we are at a disadvantage, but we are willing to pinpoint and pluck out those terrorists for as long as needed. And I believe that the continued pressure on Hamas and hopefully from the population over there will be such that Hamas will have to capitulate, will have to turn into some mediators, preferably the Egyptians.
And I know that as we speak there is a delegation of Hamas in Egypt, whereby they would surrender all their terror activities and will agree to have a meaningful ceasefire with a new supervision regime that will prevent them from smuggling more munitions, more explosives, and more terrorists into the West Bank and to the Gaza.
Tavis: Daniel Ayalon, former Israeli ambassador to the United States. Mr. Ambassador, thanks for staying up late to talk to us. I appreciate your time and your insight, sir.
Ayalon: My pleasure.
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