TONIGHT
E-mail a friendBenjamin Barber
airdate January 15, 2009
Benjamin Barber is a noted political theorist who consults regularly with institutions and leaders in the U.S. and Europe. He's a senior fellow at Demos and president-director of CivWorld at Demos, the international NGO that sponsors Interdependence Day and the Paradigm Project. His books include Jihad vs. McWorld and Consumed. Barber also co-wrote the prize-winning CBS/PBS series, The Struggle for Democracy. He earned his Ph.D. from Harvard and was a founding editor of the distinguished international journal, Political Theory.
Political theorist discusses the promise of the Obama presidency around the world and what the global challenges will be. (3:51)
Full interview. (14:04)
Benjamin Barber
Tavis: Always pleased to welcome Dr. Benjamin Barber to this program. The renowned political theorist is also a bestselling author of books like "Jihad vs. McWorld." His most recent book is called "Consumed: How Markets Corrupt Children, Infantilize Adults, and Swallow Citizens Whole." The book now out in paperback.
Each year I look forward to attending Ben Barber's Interdependence Day Forum, which each September is held in a different part of the world. This year we will be in Istanbul.
Dr. Benjamin Barber: Istanbul.
Tavis: Looking forward to that. Ben Barber, good to see you.
Barber: Great to see you, Tavis.
Tavis: Let me start by asking you to share with the audience what Interdependence Day is, why it happens every year in September, why you do it in a different part of the world. And I want to start with an explanation of that because I think the audience will see pretty quickly here that what you've been talking about for years is what we came to realize that we were lacking when this economic crisis hit us -- this notion of interdependence, yes?
Barber: That's just right, Tavis. For 200 years or more we've been celebrating independence, and that's appropriate -- Declaration of Independence, an independent country, a sovereign country. But the reality, at least since World War II and more and more in recent years, has been interdependence -- a world bound together by public health, by ecology, by technology, by global markets.
A world in which sovereign nations can't operate the way they did in the 19th and 20th century -- on their own, one by one. And what happened right after 9/11, some friends of mine I'd been meeting with internationally said to me, "We have this terrible, terrible thing happen and everybody's talking now about how the United States should respond. Can we respond to 9/11 and the terrorist event of those years by doing something together and not apart? By recognizing our interdependence and not proclaiming our independence again?"
And that gave rise the day after 9/11. September 12th we said starting in 2003, every year we were going to meet in a global capitol to talk about the challenges of interdependence, the realities of interdependence, and the possibilities of interdependence. Cooperation, working together, solving problems among nations and together with nations, not one by one, or one-on-one.
Tavis: What do you think the Bush administration, outgoing now after eight years, didn't quite understand about the notion of interdependence that you're promulgating that you hope the new Obama administration will understand about this notion of interdependence?
Barber: Well, I think the Bush administration operated like a 19th century nation in a 21st century reality. When, for example, we were attacked, in the 19th century when somebody got attacked it was one nation-state on another. We went looking for the nation-state that did that to us. First Afghanistan, then Iraq, now who knows? Iran. I think we've missed that bullet, thank god.
But they were looking for a nation to make war on because they didn't recognize that al Qaeda was not a nation but a malevolent, non-governmental organization. It was a non-state actor working in the interstices of the national system. So it tried to act like a sovereign country, by itself, taking on enemies, when the real enemies are themselves interdependent and we can only deal with them through common intelligence gathering, common international police work, and where necessary, common military work.
But you can't do it alone. In this administration, Bush said, "Bring it on, come on. The U.S. will take you on." We spurned our allies, we said we don't need friends. A few people want to go with us, that's fine. We're going to do it by ourselves. The war on terrorism, like the war on drugs, like the war on AIDS, like the war on over-leveraged banks and markets, can only be fought together, not one nation at a time.
Tavis: To come forward to, again, Mr. Obama's election, and again, we're just days away now from his being inaugurated as the 44th president, just a few months ago, in November, when he won, adulation, enthusiasm, euphoria. I don't think I'm overstating the response to his election around the world.
Because you travel the world, because this interdependence conference happens in a different part of the world every year, the easy read on this is just what I suggested: people are excited around the world about Obama becoming the next president. What's underneath that? What are we missing? What are the challenges? Because it can't all be --
Barber: Well, the promise of Obama for the world is, in a way, what the promises of Obama is for the United States: a face of America that looks like America, that looks like a multicultural America, looks like a country that is populated by dozens and dozens of peoples from all over the world. And Obama's election proves that this democracy can work.
So symbolically, it's powerfully important abroad, just as it is here. But here's the challenge that president-elect, and in a few days now, President Obama is going to have -- it's the challenge of living up to the promise. Because it can't just be the symbolism of his color, the symbolism of his background. That's great, we have Kenya, we've got Kansas, we've got Hawaii, we've got Indonesia. That's terrific, that gives a sense this is a man from the world, of the world -- a cosmopolitan president.
But he's now got to deliver some goods. He's got to prove it, because boy, you know what hope disappointed does? It crashes very, very fast, and there are very high expectations. Probably too high -- that was inevitable -- but he now has to make good on it. And that means he's got to recognize in his actions and his deeds the interdependence that his election symbolized for the United States. And that's a tremendous challenge.
Tavis: To your point now, before he got elected he traveled to Europe, and we know the hundreds of thousands of folk who showed up to see him. And McCain and them thought it was a bit much for one who was not the president to go give a public address at a major square like he did in certain parts of Europe. Is it possible -- I hear your point earlier that it was inevitable that the hype level would rise to where it was and where it is -- again, just days away from his being inaugurated. Is it possible to live up to that, though? Is it possible?
Barber: Well, in one sense, of course not, because the expectations are so high. There's no way. At most, he can meet the expectations, which is a disappointment, because people want him to surpass the expectations. But in another way, he can live up to them by delivering the goods, by beginning to develop policies in conjunction and cooperation with others, by getting, again, to look to our partners, even our adversaries, for solutions to our problems.
In moving from one situation to another, from Somalia or Sudan or Iraq or Afghanistan, looking to the states immediately surrounding those countries as partners in progress, not doing it alone; looking to deal with Venezuela and some of the challenges that we get from Venezuela and Hugo Chavez by dealing with other Latin-American countries, not by grandstanding on his own.
And I think he has the capacity to do that, and if he does that, if he shares the burden, then he will share the expectations. And people can't blame him if it doesn't all come together right away -- he will have shared. One of the problems with Bush's policies has been that by saying, "I'll do it" and "I'll take it on," the successes are his -- they've been far and few between. The failures are all his, as well.
When you share, when you cooperate, when you succeed, you share the victory. But when you fail or when you slow down, you share the responsibility and it's not all his own doing. So in this sense, I think President Obama has a chance to create a shared destiny for an interdependent world in which the United States leads but it also listens, in which the United States is a model for change and for democracy, but also learns from others how it's done.
Tavis: Was it inevitable that he would have so many Clintonites on his team so that it really couldn't be avoided, given that Clinton had some decent people around him, or are you concerned that for all the talk about change in the campaign where foreign policy is concerned, where this notion of interdependence is concerned, that we haven't seen enough new players at the top tiers of his government?
Barber: Good news and bad news. The good news is, look, almost every Democrat who's around today between 30 and 60 or 70 was involved in one way or another in the Clinton administration -- so was I, for that matter. (Laughter.) So it's hard to find somebody who doesn't have some connection.
Tavis: Yeah, (unintelligible).
Barber: So in that sense, of course there's going to be a lot of Clintonites around, because Clintonite has become a synonym for Democrat, so it's there. But I'm not so concerned with the men and women who are going to be in the new administration as I am with the ideas. And the real question is not will there be new men, new women, but will there be genuinely new ideas?
And that's not just about the people there, it's about what they've learned in the years between the Clinton administration and 2009, when a new American president, a Democrat, comes into power again. And that's my concern -- will there be new ideas? Take this tremendous economic crisis that will be his first great challenge. And as, I think back in November, "The Onion" said the day after he was elected, "Black Man Gets Worst Job in America."
Tavis: Yeah. (Laughter.) True, though.
Barber: And that's what he's inherited -- that's what he's going to have to do. So the question here is going to be now what new ideas do we have, or are we simply going to try to restore where we were two or three years ago or 10 years ago, get back to people spending money they don't have on commodities they don't need?
Are banks going to go back to lending people money to buy stuff for which there is no real express want or need? Or are we going to change our habits? Are people going to begin to say, "Happiness is something we don't have to buy?" Capitalism has to change its habits, and consumers have to change their habits. And there, the president needs to provide leadership, and that means more than bailing our industries, bailing out companies, bailing out banks, going back to where we were five years ago.
If we succeed in redressing this crisis by simply going back to where we were in 2005 or 1995, we're in deep trouble, because it'll be back again, worse, the next time. We've got to change how people think, we have to change how people view capitalism, capitalism has to change its habits and go back to making honest money by meeting real needs, not easy money by manufacturing needs for people who can't afford the goods being thrown at them.
Tavis: So here's the exit question, then -- you fill in the blank. I, Ben Barber, have been around long enough, having said all that, to not believe the hype, or I've been around long enough to actually believe in the hope of this moment.
Barber: I've been around long enough to not believe the hype, but still have faith in the hope. Not just because of President Obama, because of the resilient American people. If the people can be good as the hope that's been engendered in them by President-elect Obama, then both the president and the American people do have hope, and we have hope for a changed world.
Tavis: His latest, in paperback, is called "Consumed: How Markets Corrupt Children, Infantilize Adults, and Swallow Citizens Whole." He is a great American public intellectual. He is, of course, Professor Ben Barber. Ben Barber, nice to have you on.
Barber: Thanks so much, Tavis.
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