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• Dr. Berry's official site
• Excerpt from And Justice for All
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History professor talks about the origin of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights and the gutting of it under President Reagan. (2:34)
 

Full interview. (11:28)
 

Tavis: Mary Frances Berry is the former chair of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights who now teaches law and history at the University of Pennsylvania. She's also the author of a number of notable books, including "My Face is Black is True."

Her latest, though, is called "And Justice for All: The United States Commission on Civil Rights and the Continuing Struggle for Freedom in America." She joins us tonight from Washington. Dr. Berry, nice to have you back on this program.

Dr. Mary Frances Berry: Well, thank you for having me, Tavis.

Tavis: Let me start with the title of this book, particularly that part - "The Continuing Struggle for Freedom in America." I know that some persons would scoff at the notion, especially with a Black president in the White House, that we're still struggling for freedom on America. What do you mean by that?

Berry: Well, the Black president in the White House has already stated himself that the struggle is not over, that his election is a milestone, but there are still gaps that have to be remedied. For example, even if you look in the current recession at the unemployment rate in the country, the unemployment rate, Blacks and Hispanics still - and Blacks twice as high as Whites, Hispanics almost as high.

And that is in the midst of everybody suffering, you still have this targeted suffering. Discrimination complaints are up at the EEOC more than they've had in a long time, a lot of them about age or race discrimination. We've got a national debate going on about the rights of LBGT people, whether it's same-sex marriage or don't ask, don't tell in the military.

We have a national debate about immigration reform and what we should do. There are all these issues that need to be resolved so that we can in fact say that everybody in this country has the freedom and the opportunity and the justice that they should have, and the president recognizes that and so should all of us.

Tavis: I want to talk about the commission itself in just a moment, because you spend a lot of time in the book, of course, doing just that. We'll explore that in a moment, but let me jump ahead of myself and ask how, in the most multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic America ever, with that Black president in the White House, the commission can be taken seriously about the very issues that you raise if the argument is Barack Obama is president; we don't want to hear it.

You can do it. Discrimination, racism, didn't stop him. He didn't need help from the commission to become president.

Berry: Well, I've been hearing this from people all my life about how you did this, so why couldn't everybody else do it?

Tavis: Exactly.

Berry: There are always exceptional people who do things, and we're proud of our exceptional people. But one of the things exceptional people notice is how the ordinary person who's trying to make it in the country, how those people are faring, and we all have a responsibility to be concerned about everybody, not just the exceptions who may be tougher, or may be more able to negotiate.

And a lot of what happens to you in life is chance. I think the president would be the first one to say that a lot of what happened to him, as qualified as he is to be where he is, is the luck of the draw, being at a particular time and place.

So what a commission can do and what I hope and I propose in this book, based on the history of the commission, a new commission on human rights. People ought to have rights based on their humanity, and that is who they are - they're human beings that live in this world. We'd be able to help to build a consensus by showing what the facts are and by showing them to people and listening to all sides, if you got the right people on it who are independent-minded and bipartisan, who can help the president, as commissions have in the past helped a president to resolve some of these problems.

Tavis: To your point, Dr. Berry, about humanity, how much of what continues to trouble and travail our nation has to do with, if we can put it this way, the contested humanity of too many people?

Berry: A lot of it has to do - we ought to recognize that people have a right to, just by being alive and being human beings, that they ought to have a right to the opportunity to get shelter, to have jobs, to have education, that all these things - and to be free from fear and to be secure, and that when people work hard and, as Bill Clinton used to say, play by the rules, that they ought to have opportunity and they should not all be cut off, because they're human beings, whatever their gender is or their race or their sex or sexual orientation, or their age or disability or whatever it is. And we haven't done that yet.

Tavis: Let me go now to the commission itself. You give a pretty good history of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Contrast and compare for me, if you will, the work of the commission when it started - I'm just curious here - as to what they were doing when they started and whether or not those issues then are still in need of being worked on today.

Berry: The commission started in '57. Dwight Eisenhower recommended it as the modern civil rights movement was burgeoning, and he saw it as a way to - what he said was, "Put the facts on top of the table." Congress passed the first civil rights law since Reconstruction, which created it, and there were independent-minded people put on it.

People like Father Ted Hesburgh of Notre Dame, where the president was just out there speaking at Notre Dame and referred to him, and other courageous people who in fact went to the South and saw what was happening on race and made recommendations, and the main thing about the commission - independence from anybody, they can say whatever they want, and subpoena power, they could subpoena people - officials as well as ordinary people.

And the important thing I show in this book is the stories of the people who came to the commission with their complaints, whether they're being beaten, whether they're being shot, as one guy on the side of the road, and paralyzed, and how sometimes nobody else would help them, but the commission was courageous enough to do.

It then recommended the civil rights laws that were passed. The great Civil Rights Act of '64 and '65 were recommended by the commission. What they saw themselves as doing is putting the hopes and aspirations of the people in the streets into law, and then after that the commission monitored the law.

The commission in fact then moved on to issues of sex, discrimination, disability rights. They recommended the ADA and other parts of the great fabric of our civil rights laws, until Mr. Reagan came along and decided that he wanted to turn back the clock, and the commission's law was gutted, its membership was compromised, and today the commission that sits, mainly Mr. Bush's appointments, George W. Bush, and other people who I consider anti-civil rights, they make recommendations like they were against the Voting Rights Act that was reauthorized two years ago. They have said that law schools should not try to admit students who are diverse.

And so what we need is a new human rights commission that'll go back to what the old commission did, with members nominated by the president, confirmed by the Senate so the public knows who they are, and who are independent-minded people to solve today's problems.

Tavis: You started to scratch the surface on this a moment ago, but how did this independent, bipartisan commission become so political? I mean, you got caught up in some of those politics yourself when you were on the commission.

Berry: Right. I was on the commission and Mr. Reagan came into office, and he decided that in turning back the clock on the civil rights laws, interpreting them against what I call - what they intended to do, that he needed a commission that would be sort of a cheerleader for his change in policies, and he wanted to appoint people who would stand up with the commission logo behind them and say, "Isn't this great, what he's doing, to gut all these civil rights laws?"

So he fired some of the commissioners, including me, and it created a great firestorm, and Congress ended up passing - we got a court case which said he couldn't legally fire people, because you can't fire a watchdog for biting you - that's what the judge said. (Laughter) I thought that was funny, the case I was in.

And then Congress did what they did - they passed compromise legislation - one from both sides, column A and B, and they ended up distorting the membership. People don't have to be confirmed, people who want to put people on for political patronage can, and reasons, and they don't have to - they're supposed to be independent but they're not.

And so you get a bunch of ideologues, and that's what corrupted the commission and it's been corrupt. I tried to do something when I was there as chair - some may remember the Florida hearings in 2001, after the Bush beat Gore episode that we held.

But it was hard, and it's still hard, and what we need, to start over with a new commission - human rights, humanity, domestic and foreign. What are the international covenants that the United States has signed on human rights, and how are we abiding by them? What is it about this whole issue of torture? What do we do? What rights do we accord people? Do we abide by the Geneva Conventions and other things that we have signed on to, and what about the ones we haven't signed on to? So this is what I think is the mandate for a new commission.

Tavis: So here's the exit question. What's your sense, if you have any, of what the Obama administration thinks of your suggestion, your recommendation for a new commission, given that you were chair for some years, number one; what's your sense of what they think about it?

And connected to that, what's your sense, further, of what the Obama administration can do or will do around issues related to the future of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights?

Berry: Well, I understand from the civil rights advocacy groups' leadership conference on civil rights and people like Wade Henderson, who heads that big grand coalition, that the administration is receptive to the idea. They will have to take the leadership in doing this. I've laid it out, I'm willing to articulate it and talk about it, but I'm not an advocacy group.

But my sense is that the Obama administration is trying very hard to do some things. He hasn't confronted the issue of race directly; he didn't confront it during the campaign, and it's for obvious reasons. And I care more about what he does than I care about, really, if he says anything about it. If he does something, and by the time it's all over, whether or not he creates a new commission - and I think he should - but if he doesn't, if the dropout rate among minority kids is lower, if the gap between unemployment is lower, if all of these problems, the incarceration rate is lower and all the rest of it domestically, I'll be happy.

Tavis: My time is up, but let me just ask. I hear the point you're making, and that would be a beautiful thing, but honestly - (laughter) honestly and earnestly, is it just enough - and I'm not being facetious about that. Clearly, we want to see those numbers move in the right direction, but given the fact that the bully pulpit is what it is, is it just enough to do and not to say?

Berry: Well, I would love for him to use his great rhetorical gifts and his way of explaining things to people and persuading them - to persuade people in this country, whatever race they are or whoever they are - to go the last mile in trying to create the sort of equal and just society that we need, and I think he has the talent to do it, and I hope that at some point in his administration, he would do it.

Tavis: Mary Frances Berry, the former chair of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Her new book is called "And Justice for All: The United States Commission on Civil Rights and the Continuing Struggle for Freedom in America." Dr. Berry, as always, thanks for your insight. Nice to have you on the program.

Berry: Thank you, Tavis.