E-mail a friendDoug Pray
airdate August 31, 2009
Filmmaker Doug Pray has directed a number of highly acclaimed feature-length documentaries. His work explores American subcultures and maverick characters and includes Surfwise, on the "first family of surfing;" Big Rig, about long-haul truckers; and, his latest, Art & Copy, which looks at the world of advertising and premiered this year at Sundance. He's also directed commercials and short films. In '06, Pray won an Emmy for an advocacy campaign about HIV-AIDS awareness. He has an MFA from UCLA's School of Film and Television.
Art & Copy director talks about meaningful ads that break through today's barrage of bad advertising. (1:37)
Full interview. (10:56)
Doug Pray
Tavis: Doug Pray is an award-winning filmmaker whose previous projects include a look at hip-hop DJs called "Scratch." His latest is "Art and Copy," which takes a look at the impact of advertising on our culture. The film is now open in select cities with more on the way come September 11th. Here now, some scenes from "Art and Copy.
[Clip]
Tavis: So advertising is the subject of one of the hottest shows on TV - "Mad Men."
Doug Pray: That's right.
Tavis: And now the subject of a documentary. What is advertising doing or not doing that's rating all of this exposure?
Pray: Well, my film is about actually a look at some of the best advertising of all time, and it's kind of a different - a lot of people would expect a documentary about advertising to be trashing it or more of a social critique, but it's actually looking at what makes the best of the best of the best advertising. What makes it work, and where does it come from, and why are these people motivated to do it?
Tavis: And the through-line, the through-line for all these better-than-usual ads is what?
Pray: I think what makes a really good ad memorable - because again, I'm only - this film is interested in the films and in the advertising that actually penetrates, actually really gets to you and just like a good painting or a great song or anything, actually moves you.
And so the thing that seems in common is there's a lot of truth to them, the really good ones, like that 2 percent, and they're really simple. There's a simplicity to, like, great writing, or there's a simplicity to how they're rendered. They're just, like, good movies.
Tavis: Not to be confused with the notion of truth in advertising, there are some people who think that's oxymoronic, that an advertisement, by design, is intended to sell, that it doesn't have to be truthful. Oftentimes, they're really not truthful. It's about trying to tickle your senses to get you to try X product. What's truth got to do with it?
Pray: Well, where the truth comes in is if the product's bad then the advertising can't do anything, because people just realize this is horrible. So where it works is if there's something going on with the product and then the advertiser sees some truth. Like there's something about this that's interesting, that's actually good, and then they kind of come up with a whole campaign around that idea.
I guess my point is if you look at some of the best campaigns of all time, there is something truthful being said. Like when Volkswagen was introduced in 1959 and they said, "Think small," that's a truthful statement. It's like look, we've been advertising bigger, bigger, bigger cars for 30 years now and all of a sudden there's this little, tiny car - just think small.
And so stuff like that is kind of - it has a social - it actually has a social message behind it and it's very simple. It's kind of interesting.
Tavis: Advertising, not unlike most industries, has gotten a lot more competitive. What gives in the industry trying to deliver high-quality ads when competition is stiffer than ever?
Pray: Yeah, I think the hard thing about the people in my film at least complain about, the hard thing about making advertising now is there's just so much stuff. And in a way, there's a lot of opportunities, but there's just so much media, it's like a barrage, to any consumer out there, so how do you do something that's actually still meaningful? How do you make an ad that can make somebody literally laugh or get emotional or just feel something?
Because in the end, that's what it's all about. It's not about the product and it's not about trying to - everybody knows that it's just trying to push commerce. Like, we want to sell a bunch of stuff so we've got to tell the world about it.
But I'm just interested in those few ads that kind of transcended that and said, "We have this mass audience - why can't we move them? Why can't we do something better?" It's sort of like if you hate advertising, make better ads. And these people have - they've figured out a way to just rise above it, and a lot of it's just artistic genius, a lot of it's just simplicity.
Like those little three-word phrases like "Got milk" or "Just do it" or "Where's the beef," or something like that. And it's just interesting, how sometimes those just catch on and they literally change our culture.
Tavis: Let me flip it, though, from the advertising perspective to the consumer side, since we're the ones inundated with this barrage of ads everywhere we look - sometimes places you don't want to see. I can't stand going to a stall at a football game (laughter) and I'm trying to handle my business and there's an ad staring me in the face. You're on the elevator; you're trying to figure out what floor you're going to.
Pray: Yeah, it's everywhere, right? Yeah.
Tavis: Just ads every-freaking-where. From a consumer perspective, what about the ads that do crash through allow them to crash through for us?
Pray: They're just human. It's just like why is a good movie move you? It's just the people in my film, to varying degrees, have all figured out a way to use advertising to make a statement.
There's people in my film, like let's say George Lois (sp?). He grew up in the west Bronx and he kind of grew up fighting in the streets. And his ads, they all feel like that. You're aware of the person behind them. So it's not - it doesn't matter, okay, so he's advertising Tommy Hilfiger jeans, but his ad is a statement. He's actually, like, coming out against the status quo or he's doing something different.
The problem with most advertising is that it tends to kind of be - it is just everywhere, but it's just kind of lowest common denominator. It's just like well, let's just say what we have to say in the ad. Let's just give them a bunch of information. And those are the kind of ads that really anger people. They piss people off. So it's not - when people say they hate advertising, and so do the people in my movie. They hate 98 percent of most of the ads because they're just not doing anything interesting. It's like I look at it like architecture.
You can look at architecture say, like, how come there's only a couple buildings I go into every day that actually move me and make me feel good and uplift me and are interesting? And it's the same thing, and those are choices that people make when they make ads.
Tavis: Is it a statement about the ad or about me, the consumer - we, the consumers - that simplicity seems to trump creativity. I think now, for example, about "Just do it." Pretty simple, "Just do it," for Nike, versus I love these Kenneth Cole ads personally because they're really creative. Why does simplicity trump creativity, if I can put it this way?
Pray: It's not just that it's simple; it's that it actually has meaning. It actually speaks to you. And so you take these - regardless of what anybody thinks about Nike or the shoes, my point is those three words, "Just do it," actually inspired people to do all sorts of stuff.
So in the '80s and '90s, millions of people started jogging and exercising, or they left their lousy husbands (laughter) or they up and did something because of those words.
Tavis: Hey, don't be encouraging stuff.
Pray: And when you look at that, you kind of go, "Man, that's interesting. This is a really interesting art form." And it's only an art form when it's kind of reaching that kind of level, and a lot of those ads really were brilliant.
Tavis: All right, enough play for Nike on this program - I hope you all appreciate that. (Laughter) Let's move to something else now. You mentioned the "Got milk" commercials. That works, clearly.
Pray: Right. Well, again, it's like it's just simple. I don't know, I'm not so much an advertiser myself. All I know is there's some kind of magic going on when something just catches on like that, and people just look at it and they laugh and they're moved by it and they're like, that is great, I can relate to that, I feel there's truth in that.
When I've eaten a peanut butter sandwich and I'm thirsty, I went - is it making a big social statement? No. Is it changing the world for the better? No. Is it a great ad campaign? Yeah. Does it bother people? No. Bad ads bother people and really good ads kind of don't as much.
Tavis: To your point, though, what about persons who think - and we saw some of this in the clip earlier on - people who think that advertising ought to be saying something, not just selling something? Is it wrong to feel that way?
Pray: Well, I think it should. No, I think it should and I think it could. It's like the quote you heard is from George Lois. He's like, "I think advertising can be and should be a way to say what's on your mind." Ads can be political, they can change the way we look at the world. And so my film is a celebration of those kinds of ads that have done that.
Like even in the '60s, Mary Wells is in the film and she was one of the first great women in advertising, and she did this whole Braniff campaign. Well, before that airplanes were really boring. They were incredibly dull. And she came out with this campaign, painted all the planes crazy colors, did these whacked-out, amazing ads for them, and all of a sudden the aircraft industry, it was just more fun and then all the other airlines followed suit.
So it can lift things up. It can make our everyday life better if it's done right. That's kind of the message. It's just that that doesn't happen too often.
Tavis: I know that this is situational, but since you did the documentary, the story that you found most interesting about how a campaign came to be, how a slogan came to be? The one you found the most interesting.
Pray: Well, I guess - you're going to laugh, because it's back to "Just do it," but who would have known that actually it was inspired by Gary Gilmore, you know the guy who was executed for murder? His last words were -
Tavis: "Let's do it."
Pray: "Let's do it." And Dan (unintelligible) heard that and I guess - I'm just repeating his quote in the movie, but he says, "Wow, well, I like the 'do it' part of it." How strange is that? (Laughter)
Tavis: A guy who's about to die says, "Let's do it," and Nike takes that and turns it into a campaign.
Pray: And inspires millions of people to become healthier.
Tavis: Do you know - I researched this since I was so curious about it since you mentioned Nike 25 times in this conversation.
Pray: Yeah, well, I'm really not working for Nike, I've got to say.
Tavis: Yeah, I'm being funny. I was just curious; I went looking for this just so I would know. You know what Michael Jordan's worth to Nike is?
Pray: We have statistics in the film that actually talk about it.
Tavis: Yeah, so you do know.
Pray: It's in the billions.
Tavis: Yeah, $5.2 billion, Jordan's worth to Nike with that "Just do it" slogan. He sold more of that than anybody else. I ain't mad at you, Michael. Anyway, the new film (laughter) - the new film is called "Art and Copy." Glad to have you on the program.
Pray: Thanks so much.
Tavis: It's good to see you.
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