E-mail a friendAmbassador Michael Oren
airdate October 19, 2009
Israel's Ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren has authored numerous studies on Middle East history and politics and written for various publications, including The New Republic, where he was a contributing editor. He's also been a visiting professor at Harvard, Yale and Georgetown. A graduate of Princeton and Columbia, Oren was raised in the U.S. and moved to Israel in '79. He served in the Israeli military and as an advisor in the Rabin government. His best-selling books include Six Days of War and Power, Faith and Fantasy.
Israel's Ambassador to the U.S. explains why some countries can or cannot have nuclear weapons. (2:06)
Full Interview (11:23)
Ambassador Michael Oren
Tavis: Michael Oren serves as Israel's ambassador to the U.S. following a career as a best-selling author, professor, and columnist. When he was last on this program he was discussing his critically claimed history of the Middle East called "Power, Faith, and Fantasy." He joins us tonight from Washington. Ambassador Oren, nice to have you on the program, sir.
Amb. Michael Oren: Good to be back, Tavis, thank you.
Tavis: How does one go, as I said a moment ago, from best-selling author to ambassador to the U.S. from Israel, of all places?
Oren: Well, I am Israeli, I live in Jerusalem. I've lived there for 30 years. My family is raised there. But it's a great opportunity for me, Tavis. Before, I was writing about history, now I have an opportunity to help make history.
Tavis: Speaking of making history, let's start with the obvious - big news today about these talks regarding Iran's nuclear program - talks, of course, in Vienna. Without coloring the question initially at least too much, your thoughts about the talks?
Oren: Well, some of the initial readouts from those talks, Tavis, show that the Iranians are actually pulling back from some of the confidence measures that they - confidence-building measures that they offered earlier in the month. They're actually threatening to enrich uranium to even higher, very dangerous levels. I think we have to be very, very cautious in testing Iran's credibility here.
Here's a regime that has systematically lied about its uranium enrichment process for the last 25 years. Just recently it was revealed that they had a secret facility for enriching uranium. I think we have to be very, very cautious as we move forward in these engagement talks with Iran.
Tavis: Everybody around the globe seems to be concerned about Iran's capacity for nuclear arms. I guess the question specifically for you is what does Israel perceive as the unique threat to it from Iran having a nuclear capacity?
Oren: Well, the Iranian regime has made no attempt to disguise its vision of someday wiping Israel off the map. They've made that pledge repeatedly. Iran is supporting terrorist groups Hezbollah and Hamas that openly talk about destroying Israel, killing its civilians. It's a regime that threatens not just Israel but many of our neighboring Arab states, and a regime that threatens its own citizens, opens fire at them while they're demonstrating peacefully for democracy in Iran.
This is Iran that is supporting terror worldwide and even developing a missile system which is capable not only of hitting all Middle Eastern capitals but is now capable of reaching cities in Europe and in several years could reach this continent as well.
Tavis: I was talking, Ambassador Oren, to some kids the other day, and as you know, kids can ask sometimes some pretty intriguing questions. They may appear to be naïve on the surface but they make you think. I'm curious as to how you would have answered the question that was posed to me by a young American student here the other day, which is who's to say what country has or does not have nuclear capacity? Israel has it, the U.S. has it. Who are we to tell Iran that they can't have it?
Oren: I think the important thing is not - the important thing is policies, and we know that the United States is not threatening to wipe anybody else off the map, no other country off the map. The United States is not supporting terrorist groups around the world.
Israel, of course, is also not threatening to wipe any of its neighbors off the map, not supporting terrorist groups. The question I think you have to ask this young American, I think it's a very good question, very intelligent question, is would you trust somebody who is threatening to kill you, who is supporting other people who are threatening to kill you, would you trust this person with a weapon that could potentially kill millions of people?
Tavis: The other part of that question, it seems to me, is the proportionate or disproportionate use of power. Israel has not used, obviously, a nuclear weapon on its neighbors, but one could argue - many have argued, in fact - that in skirmishes, for lack of a better word, over the past few years there's been this great debate, as you know now as a new ambassador, about Israel's disproportionate use of power against neighbors. Your thoughts on that?
Oren: My thought was that in fact we have used disproportionate power in the sense that our neighbors have - certainly the Hamas terrorist organization - has fired thousands of missiles at our civilians, and we waited many, many years and literally begged Hamas to engage in a ceasefire, which they turned down.
So if there was any disproportionality it was the fact that Israel waited with great restraint before responding to this threat, and even in responding to the threat acted with great restraint. We used a small fraction of our power to try to eliminate this missile threat. We've largely succeeded in doing that. There's been, by and large, quiet on our southern border since our action in Gaza last winter.
Tavis: Would you agree that there is a gap, maybe even growing, between Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders on the peace question?
Oren: I think actually we are making significant progress getting back to the negotiating table. Just last month President Obama convened a trilateral meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and we hope to get back to the negotiating table quickly. Our position is that we're willing to negotiate today directly, without preconditions, and I think we're making progress toward that goal.
Tavis: You mentioned President Obama. Two questions about him. Number one, what makes you believe that he as president now can be an honest broker in these peace talks between Israel and Palestine?
Oren: President Obama has made the unprecedented gesture of going to Cairo and telling the Arab world that they must accept Israel's legitimacy. No other president has ever done that before. It was an historic move and we deeply appreciate it.
President Obama has again and again reaffirmed his support for Israel's security, for its continued existence as the national home of the Jewish people, that someday hopefully can live side-by-side with the national home of the Palestinian people in their own state. We have full confidence in the president's ability to be an honest broker.
Tavis: Is it just that he went to Cairo? Is that the main difference? Because every president basically has said that Israel is our friend and we could have a debate for hours here about U.S. policy and how lopsided it's been in favor of Israel. We could debate that all night. I'm trying to figure out whether or not it was just the trip to Cairo, because policy-wise his approach hasn't been any different in terms of statements about Israel, again, being our friends than any other U.S. president, basically.
Oren: Well, those statements are very, very important to us. We have to rely on those statements. We live in a very tough neighborhood, Tavis, as you know, and our faith in the president of the United States is essential for our security, and giving the Israelis the sense of security that they need to take the risks to make peace.
If peace is ever to be made Israelis are going to have to take a tremendous amount of risk, giving up territory that is adjacent to our major population centers, all of which could be in range of terrorist groups. So when the president comes out and reaffirms his support for Israel's security, for its survival, that's absolutely essential to us and we deeply appreciate it.
Tavis: I could argue this either way - that's neither here nor there. I'm curious as to your take as to whether or not, Ambassador Oren, the recent receiving of the Nobel Peace Prize by President Obama helps or handicaps Israel in peace talks.
Oren: Oh, I think it certainly is a great sign of respect for the American president. The president of Israel, Shimon Perez, as well as the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, conveyed their ardent wishes of congratulation to President Obama on this historic event - the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize. I think it just underscores the need for progress toward the peace process and that we look forward to working with President Obama as well as with our Palestinian partners to realizing the goal of peace not just between Israel and Palestinians but between Israelis and all of our neighbors in the Middle East.
Tavis: To the point about your Palestinian partners, there are many who believe not just Palestinians but indeed other disenfranchised entities, people around the globe, will remind President Obama every time he does something they disagree with, you're the guy that has the Peace Prize - how about some fairness and some equity in these conversations?
Oren: Again, I can only say that the awarding of this historic price to President Obama only underscores the historic task that we all have before us of working toward an equitable peace between Israelis and Palestinians, between Israelis and all the peoples of the Middle East.
Tavis: We all know that the Bush administration was roundly criticized for not doing much of anything during its eight years with regard to the Middle East. They tried sort of a Doug Flutie political Hail Mary in the last year of being in office. My assessment, again, not yours.
Having said that, what's your sense of what the Obama administration ought to be doing? What is the mission right now? What are the next steps? They've got George Mitchell, of course, as the special envoy. What's the process here?
Oren: The process is I think very clear-cut to all of us. It's getting us back to the negotiating table, preferably without preconditions. This now is also the Obama administration's policy and moving forward we have to discuss not only getting back to the table, but what we're going to discuss about - whether we're going to talk about an interim stage of a provisional Palestinian state or so right for that Hail Mary, as you said, for that end game of dealing with all the major issues between us, which are vastly complex.
The status of Jerusalem, some type of resolution of the refugee problem, both the Palestinian and the Jewish refugee problem, as well as the very crucial question of borders. I think that we have a wide sense of agreement between Israel and the United States about the tasks ahead of us and how to move toward realizing and fulfilling the goals of those tasks.
Tavis: You're the ambassador and obviously you work very close with the prime minister, the leader of your government. Benjamin Netanyahu has been on this program before. I think it's pretty fair - safe to say that around the world people see Netanyahu as a hardliner as compared to others who've occupied that post. Your thoughts on, whether you agree or disagree with the assessment, the assessment of him that tends to be the perception - how does that, again, challenge Israel in moving the peace process forward, what people think of him specifically?
Oren: I don't know what people think of him, but I can tell you what I know of him - that he is a patriot, a person who has served his country in many capacities, as a commando fighting terrorists, as an ambassador to the U.N., as an ambassador in Washington, as now the second time prime minister, a person who has served in its parliament for many years, and an experienced diplomat and statesman.
But beyond that, as far as the hard line, here is a prime minister who has come out in support of a two-state solution, who has offered to meet the United States and reach an agreement on the question of settlements, which was a very complex question for the prime minister, who is engaging every week with President Obama's special envoy to the Middle East, the very capable Senator George Mitchell.
He is a realist. He understands that we have to move toward peace. He is committed to reaching that goal of peace, but he doesn't want a peace, Tavis, that's going to end up like Gaza, where Israel withdraws from territory and finds itself the target of thousands of missiles, doesn't want to see a Palestinian state that could turn around and make a treaty with Iran that is supporting terrorist groups. So he is a committed seeker of peace, but also a realist.
Tavis: Ambassador Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the U.S. Glad to have you on the program, thanks for coming on. We'll talk to you again, I hope.
Oren: Thank you again. Bye-bye.
Tavis: My pleasure.
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