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In 2001
Dr. Carl A. Cohn served his ninth year as superintendent of the
94,000-student Long Beach Unified School District, the third largest
district in California. He was the longest serving superintendent
of any large, urban district in the nation. Today he is a Clinical
Professor at Rossier School of Education, USC. He holds a doctorate
from UCLA in Urban and Educational Policy and Planning, a master's
degree in Counseling from Chapman University in Orange, CA, and
a bachelor's degree in Philosophy from St. John's College in Camarillo,
CA. |
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"A
youngster who drops out today is likely to face either a life time
of unemployment and/or incarceration, especially if that youngster
dropping out is a kid of color."
"The
truth is there are times when Sacramento is further away from local
school districts than Washington is."
"We say we want to close the gap, but if you give the same
resources to those who are behind as you give to those who are managed,
it's not likely that you're going to close the gap."
"I
don't buy the notion this whole idea that's advanced by prominent
luminaries, that somehow certification equals quality teaching.
I can take you to schools in Long Beach where 50 percent of the
teachers might be on emergency permit or alternative certification
and their scores on the SAT-9 are absolutely boffo."
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JOHN
MERROW
You've been in public education in California for virtually all your
adult life. In your judgment, are California's public schools better
today than when you started in 1968?
CARL COHN
I think they probably are. I did something interesting, I was asked
to do a 50th anniversary lecture on the founding of California State
University in Long Beach, which was 1949. So I went back and I looked
at what the superintendent of schools in Long Beach was saying to
the teachers at the opening meeting in September of 1949. And September
of 1949, Long Beach, sort of an Iowa by the sea school system with
a strong national reputation in 1949, the superintendent was complaining
about three things. Number one, youngsters growing up in uncertain
times because of divorce and collapse of the family. Number two, high
school youngsters who couldn't read their textbooks. And number three,
50 percent of the youngsters dropping out.
JOHN MERROW
That's 1949 ...
CARL COHN
That's 1949 in Long Beach, what was seen as a light house school district
you had those kinds of challenges, high school age youngsters who
couldn't read their textbooks and 50 percent of the kids dropping
out. And the difference was in 1949 the society and the economy ...
the factories, the military, all of those places, had all kinds of
ways of absorbing those youngsters and making them productive. Now
today I believe that we're doing a much better job than a 50 percent
dropout rate. And I suspect that today more high school age youngsters
can probably read their textbooks than in 1949. So it all kind of
depends on where you're starting from.
I think we're doing a much better job of focusing on each and every
student today. And be ... you know, I accept the slogan of the Children's
Defense Fund, "No child left behind," as opposed to others
who've appropriated the slogan. We really are looking at kids who
come from very challenging backgrounds and circumstances and trying
to give all of them with all of the challenges that they bring to
the classroom, trying to make sure that they don't fall through the
cracks. And in that sense I think public education in California is
in fact better today than it was two, three, four decades ago.
JOHN MERROW
I think you're begging the question ... is race an issue in this story?
CARL COHN
I think anyone who's a native Californian and saw how Pat Brown Senior
in the 1960's ... whether it was roads, schools, transportation, whatever,
the commitment ... the public commitment was there. And building of
the University of California and expansion of the university, it was
clear that Californians as voters, as tax payers wanted the best for
their kids. When you look at it today, the issue of race, if you've
been here for four decades, you've got to acknowledge that there doesn't
seem to be the same enthusiasm for spending on this diverse population
of kids in order to ensure that their future is as bright as it should
be. That's a long way to go.
Right now you've got all kinds of people playing in this mix. You've
got the superintendent of public instruction, California Department
of Education, you've got the state board of education, you've got
the California legislature, and then you've got the citizens through
the initiative process who every two or three years decide that they're
going to make education policy through some bold swing of the axe.
So you've got all this confusion ... I think you need to talk about
the government structure, but the other thing, you know, that I would
like to do, if I were out there and had the money to sponsor an initiative,
I would sponsor an initiative that would return local control, the
pre-proposition 13, pre-Serrano versus Priest,
policy of local control to the state's school systems. I believe at
the local level you really can do the job. And I think the fact that
the dropout rate is not what it was in 1949, the fact that more high
school kids can read their textbooks, that's an improvement from where
things were back when. But the real difference is a youngster who
drops out today is likely to face either a life time of unemployment
and/or incarceration, especially if that youngster dropping out is
a kid of color. And that's the real difference, and I'm not sure how
much educators control the economy's ability to absorb youngsters
and all of the other factors that went into the rescue of those kids
back in 1949. That doesn't seem to be available today.
JOHN MERROW
Is is there a villain of this story? You know, people like Mike
Kirst and Jim Guthrie say that a harmful
and unintended consequence of Proposition 13 was a centralization
of authority.
CARL COHN
I think the shift to Sacramento did in fact hurt. And, and not only
on the funding front, but a wide variety of fronts. You know, you
look at things like the reading wars. Well, the whole, whole language
issue of the late 80s ... that came from Sacramento. Bill Honig was
the champion, the state superintendent was the champion of whole language.
Came out, threatened school systems, that they had to get with whole
language. So now everybody says, "You know what? Whole language
is responsible for these dismal reading scores, and you should have
been doing phonics all along." And so this whole notion, yes,
I think there, there is a villain in the sense of Sacramento and the
state saying, "You know what? We can do this better than people
at the local level."
The truth is there are times when Sacramento is further away from
local school districts than Washington is. It's a huge ... at times,
distant, arrogant ... policy center that often focuses more on compliance
than on really making progress with real kids and their learning.
I think that the state through the credentialing process basically
over-regulates the public schools. And that, obviously that's a pet
peeve of mine. You know if you're going to ultimately hold us accountable
and make comparisons between public schools and voucher schools and
private and parochial schools, you've got to deregulate both. You
can't say one is going to be regulated and the other can go out and
take the BA student from the Ivy league institution that actually
knows English literature. And the public school has to cool that youngster
out with all kinds of education courses and Sid Well Friends can just
put that youngster in the classroom right away. Or St. Albans can
put that youngster in the classroom right away. To me, that makes
no sense at all, if the youngster graduated from an Ivy league school
and really knows English literature, let them go teach it.
Rather than lowering class size 20 to one at kindergarten to grade
three, we want class size to be 20 to one at grades four and five.
The notion that somehow state government ... has the answer that,
that in 1,000 school systems, the best use of this new billion-dollar
investment in public education was 20 to one, kindergarten to grade
three in 1,000 school systems, again, that's absurd. That's preposterous.
You know, maybe lowering class size at another grade level may, extending
the school day and school year with that billion-dollar investment
for poor kids, maybe that's a smarter way to go than lowering class
size in, in the primary grades.
JOHN MERROW
Trust local wisdom?
CARL COHN
Ultimately ... in this ... democracy, you know ... where are you going
to put your trust? Are you going to put your trust in 1,000 pages
of new no-child-left-behind regulations? The notion that the man living
at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue can actually bring quality to schools
that are 3,000 miles away, when the school's closest to the White
House are in dismal shape?
JOHN MERROW
The class action lawsuit that says we know
this is not fair, we have classrooms with 45 kids and 30 desks and
chairs, we have kids with no textbooks, we have bathrooms don't work,
including Long Beach ...
CARL COHN
Yeah ...
JOHN MERROW
And we have overflow classrooms in Long Beach that class
action lawsuit says the whole state is falling short ...
CARL COHN
I think ...
JOHN
MERROW
Much of the state is falling short.
CARL COHN
I think the expectations are much higher, and that's probably a good
thing. There's no question about the facilities have been a huge challenge
in terms of getting in the queue for building new schools, that sort
of thing. I think that when you actually look at what's been done,
I think you can make a lot of progress. I'm not arguing that the resources
have been there to do all the things that we would like to do, or
that the state of California deserves a gold star. But I think you
can do an awful lot with the resources that have been given, and when
you look at issues around facilities, that sort of thing, I think
we did pass our bond. We do have a building program. And I think all
of those things are part and parcel of what we're doing to make things
better for kids. But no ... I don't think the state has done everything
that it can do, and I think the William's lawsuit
has really been about sort of the blame game. Is it the responsibility
of the locals, does the state of California need an inspector general
who's going to go around and check to make sure that toilets flush,
all of those kinds of things.
JOHN MERROW
How do you want that lawsuit to come out?
CARL COHN
I really think that some sort of formula that would give additional
resources to those school districts that are involved in the lawsuit
would be the way I'd like to see it come out but ..
JOHN MERROW
You want them to win.
CARL COHN
In a sense, if it's more resources for those places that have been
identified as needing more, yes. And part of the problem in California,
we say we want to close the gap, but if you give the same resources
to those who are behind as you give to those who are managed, it's
not likely that you're going to close the gap. If I had been governor
I would have given primary class size reduction to the 18 districts
in the Williams lawsuit case. I would change
facilities funding in those types of things to give an advantage to
those overcrowded, land-locked urban areas in terms of finding space
for new schools.
JOHN MERROW
You say the right thing is to spend more money on the least advantaged
kids?
CARL COHN
I believe so.
JOHN MERROW
You'd have been a one term governor.
CARL COHN
Perhaps ... courageous ... but I think at some point you've got to
take the message to those who live in the suburbs and other places
that if you don't address these problems, their quality of life will
not be what it should be. This sort of public policy that accepts
high crime rates, the building of more prisons, youngsters in poverty
falling further behind, that's not decent public policy. It may take
a courageous series of one term governors to get that message out,
but if I'm fat and happy in the suburbs, I might well vote for a governor
who has the courage to make sure that those kids in poverty get a
leg up and get a few advantages.
JOHN MERROW
Those 18 districts in the Williams case,
they're saying well, these kids don't have textbooks.
CARL COHN
That's not true in Long Beach. You know, one of the interesting things
about the Williams case... one of the schools
named was Jackie Robinson, and we actually had some of the ACLU people
talking to parents across the street from the school and trying to
get information about rats and all of these alleged things, and so
the principal comes out and the parents told her there are these people
across the street who are asking about the school. So she went across
the street, she invited the ACLU reps into the school, gave them a
tour of the school and then they said, "Is there another Jackie
Robinson School in Long Beach?" It's a nice school, it's a very
nice school without any of the problems that were identified. So in
the allegations in the lawsuit. So because someone files a lawsuit
and names a school district and kind of sends up a bunch of stuff
about rats and no textbooks and that type of thing, during discovery
there's also a period where you find out maybe some of this was a
little over zealous and maybe they identified some of the wrong schools,
that type of thing. Anybody that wants to come in and look at us with
regard to textbooks, that type of thing, we would welcome that.
JOHN MERROW
A bunch of stuff ... that's dismissing it ... you're just dismissing
it for Long Beach or you're saying ...
CARL COHN
I'm saying some of those allegations about things like lack of textbooks
or rats, that type of thing, they definitely don't apply to Long Beach.
I would argue that there are not enough resources, but I would also
argue that there's a lot that you can do to improve school systems
with what's being given now. And you know, we did that through school
uniforms, through ending social promotion, through a whole host of
things that really didn't cost a lot more money. And so it kind of
depends on where you are in terms of public policy, how you want to
argue this. But you know, California needs a heck of a lot more. Yeah,
we'd love to have New Jersey's funding ... per pupil funding, that
would be ... that would be wonderful. But I don't think you can sit
around and wait till you get New Jersey funding, I think there are
things you can do to improve urban schools right now.
JOHN MERROW
Why does it take court cases seemingly to move a system?
CARL COHN
I think the facilities issue is a big issue. You have phenomenal growth
in Southern California. Before 1980 in the Long Beach school system
you had 16 years of declining enrollment. Starting in 1980, you have
now had 22 years in a row of growth. And that growth has been between
two ... sometimes between two and 3,000 students a year. Now without
a lot of money for facilities in terms of the state, the position
that we always take and the only legal position that a public school
system can take is that you educate all kids who come through the
school house door. So if you're overcrowded you can't send them home.
It's not like higher ed where you can have cap enrollment, you can
have an enrollment management committee that can get together and
say you know what, in this year's freshman class we're only going
to take 3,000 rather than 3,500. In K-12 you educate all kids. So
using the library, the auditorium, whatever you have, that's just
part of the roll up your sleeves, get it done, of a K-12 school system.
I don't think it's particularly shocking, you educate all kids. I
don't think you can without the proper help and support I don't think
you can just go out and turn kids away or overnight manufacture the
bungalows have to go somewhere, you've got to plop them down somewhere.
And I think this is just part of the challenge.
JOHN MERROW
I think I hear contradictions in what you're saying. Say well ...
20 years of deferred maintenance if you will, no growth ... not enough
money for growth, and yet you're still saying well, we're doing a
better job.
CARL COHN
I think we are in terms of teaching poor kids to reach, the thing
that's really important in terms of improving life chances ... I think
so, yeah.
JOHN MERROW
California has thousands and thousands of uncertified, untrained,
un-credentials, essentially unqualified ... or apparently unqualified,
men and women in the classrooms.
CARL COHN
I disagree, John. Completely. 1968, I was one of those emergency permit
teachers. One of the problems in education nationally is that basically
we've bought all this nonsense that certification equals quality,
and it doesn't. And, as a matter of fact, certification is sometimes
synonymous with people who can survive very dreary courses. As a professor
here at USC, I probably shouldn't be saying that. But I don't buy
the notion that this whole idea that's advanced by prominent luminaries,
that somehow certification equals quality teaching. I can take you
to schools in Long Beach where 50 percent of the teachers might be
on emergency permit or alternative certification and their scores
on the SAT-9 are absolutely boffo. And what universities and higher
education ought to be doing, instead of complaining about emergency
permit teachers, they ought to be out there using their research dollars
to study what it is about those inner-city schools that have 30, 40,
50 percent emergency permit people and are doing a good job. That's
what they ought to be doing to disseminate that information around
the country, rather than sitting around complaining about emergency
permit teachers. These teachers are some of the best, most dedicated
people that you'll find in the profession today.
One of the things that the media has done is to portray these teachers
in a negative light, and I feel that that's wrong. I, I feel they're
among the best in terms of the profession and I would invite those,
whether in the world of foundations, the world of grants, that want
to spend time at schools that have large percentages of these teachers
who are doing a good job, to come to Long Beach. Englewood's got some.
Nancy Chinonga on the State Board of Education, her scores on the
SAT-9 ... were absolutely outstanding. And one of the things that
she said was ... "I'll take the emergency permit teacher any
day over the ... some of the credentialed ones that come from the
better universities. Because the right kind of professional development
will give me a very good classroom teacher."
JOHN MERROW
Is California's public education system in crisis?
CARL COHN
That's, that's a very good question. And I'll be better able to answer
that after I have a few months of reflection. Obviously ... I'm inside
it. I haven't left it. To me it's this incredible challenge. Crisis?
I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
JOHN MERROW
You have schools where there are 100 different languages spoken. You
have schools with 45, 50 kids in fourth and fifth grade. You have
... et cetera, et cetera ... tiles falling down...
CARL COHN
Right.
JOHN MERROW
What do you need to think about?
CARL COHN
The issue that you raise to me that's not a crisis, as much as it
is a challenge. And I think educators do best when they work hard
on influencing those things that they have the most control over.
And that's the teaching/learning environment. I can't control the
initiative process. I'm not the governor of the state. I have sort
of an avocation interest in politics, that type of thing. And so sitting
around handicapping how things could have gone differently, yes. I
very much enjoy that. But I'm not sure it's a crisis. You know, when
you look at the SAT-9 and you look at the achievement gains that are
being made, they're starting to look pretty steady. They're starting
to advance. And if every urban school system puts the type of reforms
at the K8 level in place, that I think we've done ... this whole issue
of what happens to high school exit exam, that type of thing, I think
is going to be solved. If you bring better prepared students to high
school, yes, they're going to do better on these tests. So I think
it's a huge challenge. I'm not sure ... it's the crisis. |
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