Topic: Orthodox and its actual meaning. Posted By: David Miller Date: 06 Jun 1998 12:06 AM
I'm deeply disturbed by the non-factual information used to describe
Eastern Orthodoxy and it's beginings.Icons for instance are not
painted... they are "written". while most don't see or understand the
diffrence, to those who are Orthodox it is major. There is no
"earth-god or goddess" worship or thology involved in orthodoxy. for
example in the Icon of St. George the white horse is not a symbol of
the sun or any such thing. The white horse represents purity or
holyness. nothing more nothing less. this and other issues makes me
wonder if bill or pbs ever thought to check with the orthodox church
itself for its beliefs. there are many orthodox "cultures". the Greeks
have almost as long a history as the Syrians (Church of Antioch). both
of which use Icons and worship identically to the russians. ROCOR is
the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. it also has a rich history.
did anyone bother to check??? from what i saw the answer is no!!!! I
think a little more investigative work would have been advisable.
Responses:
Subject: Corrections From: David Miller Date: 06 Jun 1998 3:20 PM
After having read my letter while a little more awake i noticed some
things that needed correction. first I'm refering to pagan theology
not just theology, also I did a great disservice to Mr. Billington. I
wrote bill... sorry.
Subject: Orthodoxy From:Irena Date: 06 Jun 1998 10:36 PM
Reply to David Miller's letter:I agree. The author should have done
more research about Eastern Orthodoxy: from the Church's perspective.
Seems he got his info from Bolshevik perspective.+Presvytaja Bohorodice
spasi nas+
One of the things that puzzles me greatly is Dr. Billington's sentence
at the end of Part I that the "ikonostatis is a Russian invention." If
icons came from Byzantium, it seems highly unlikely that the wall they
were placed on should come from elsewhere...
Subject: Ikonostatis From:Mike Davidchik Date: 06 Jun 1998 10:58 PM
I don't think that ikonostatis is either a Russian or Orthodox
invention. It is an invention of the Byzantine Riteof Christianity. It
existed long before the Schism and Russia, It has also always been
used in the Eastern(Greek) Rite of the Catholic Church in Eastern
Europe, Middle East, and Asia Minor.
Subject: Iconostasis From:Lavrentiy Krupnak Date: 06 Jun 1998 3:45 PM
Hello Natalie and Michael:It has been documented that an iconostasis, a
screen or wall between the Sanctuary and the nave, existed in the early
Christian churches. Information about these "screens" can be found in
the writings of the Church Fathers... The form and height of these
first "screens" varied. ... On the inner side, that is, on the side of
the Sanctuary, was a curtain which was drawn open or closed in
accordance with the various stages of the church service...The
Sanctuary screen began to grow more complex very early. First under the
architrave, and later upon it, immediately over the Royal Door, an icon
of the Saviour was written, and later a triptych of the Saviour, the
Holy Virgin, and John the Baptist ... the so-called Deisis. The
triptych-style screen was the one brought to Rus' from Byzantium and
was the basic form from which the current Orthodox iconostasis
gradually evolved. The evolution consisted of adding to the above
mentioned icons and increasing the number of levels or tiers. By the
13th and 14th centuries the iconostasis consisted of many tiers. In the
17th and 18th centuries, this elaborate format spread from Russian
Orthodox Churches to other Orthodox countries.For more information
about the iconstasis, you may want to consult the following book: "The
Meaning of Icons" by Leonid Ouspensky and Vladimir Lossky, St.
Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary Press, Crestwood, New York, 1989.
Subject: ikonostasis From: Natalie Mason Gawdiak Date: 06 Jun 1998 6:01 PM
Thank you. It is as I thought--the ikonostasis evolved, as did ikon
writing--from Byzantium, and was not, therefore, "a Russian invention"!
Subject: Iconostasis From:Laurence Krupnak Date: 06 Jun 1998 7:43 PM
Hello Natalie: If Dr. Billington stated that the "iconostasis is a
Russian invention" that would be an incorrect statement. However,
maybe we are evaluating a statement that has been taken out of either
textual or visual context or perhaps Dr. Billington, or more likely an
editor, meant that the now common, elaborate, multi-tiered, templon
that reaches to the church ceiling is a "Russian invention." This
form, i.e. an iconostasis that reaches the church ceiling, is a purely
"Russian" iconostasis form. In Byzantium and early Rus' churches the
iconostasis was very low, a one-, two- or three-tier (at most) screen.
This style is still prominent in Greek Orthodox churches. However, in
the Russian Orthodox Church, the historical iconostasis was embellished
with many themes, with icons to depict the history of salvation and the
life of Christ, icons of the Holy Days, the Tchin, the Prophets, the
Patriarchs, etc. The embellishment of the core Byzantium-style
iconostasis to produce a ceiling-high iconostasis is a Russian Orthodox
Church "invention" (to use Dr. Billington's word, which is not the
appropriate word in my opinion). Lavrentiy Krupnak
Subject: Iconostasis From:Lavrentiy Krupnak Date: 07 Jul 1998 12:29 PM
Hello David: Lest we forgot and to ensure that false information is not
provided here, please note that the word Orthodoxy, which means the
immutable conservation of the Christian and Catholic doctrines, as
taught by Christ, the Apostles, and the early Church Fathers, was used
in the Christian Church since the second century and the appellation
"Orthodox" was applied in ancient times to the whole Church. After the
Great Schism in 1054, Orthodox was retained by the Eastern Church and
the Western Church appropriated to itself the name "Catholic," which is
misleading and false catechism since the Orthodox Churches are also
catholic, as the Nicene Creed, which all Orthodox Chriastian recite,
states in part: "....And, I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
Church..." Thus, your statements: "I don't think that ikonostatis is
either a Russian or Orthodox invention. It is an invention of the
Byzantine Rite of Christianity. It existed long before the Schism and
Russia, it has also always been used in the Eastern (Greek) Rite of the
Catholic Church in Eastern Europe, Middle East, and Asia Minor" is
therefore inaccurate on several levels. Iconography is not an
"invention" of the Byzantine Rite of Christianity. Please recall that
the Byzantine Rite is a Rite within the Roman Catholic Church which was
established the Byzantine Rite in the 16th and 17th centuries, under
the Church Union Treaty of Brest and the Church Union Treaty of
Uzhgorod, respectively. The Byzantine Rite Churches (Greek Catholic
Churches) were formerly part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Lavrentiy
Krupnak
Subject: Mother of God From:Andrei Kokov Date: 07 Jul 1998 6:34 PM
What I'd like to add here, for a person aquaintanced with Christianity
on more serious basis than traditionsl Orthodoxy offers, it's a problem
to talk about mother of God (Bogoroditsa): while God is the Creator,
Who existed before anything came into being (including such categories
as time and space), the God can't have any mother. There is certain
difficulty to accept that mother of Jesus - the man who was son of God
and served as the Saviour - this Jewish woman known as Mary was not
mother of God. If we assume that God had Mother, we should serve the
Mother (as the supreme Goddess) rather than we serve the Lord. So it's
a serious thing, if you take it seriously: the Deity becames unclear.
And this doesn't go along with the religion doctrine based on the
primarity of the service of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Subject: Mother of God From:Mike Davidchik Date: 07 Jul 1998 9:46 PM
Andrei...This is completely false in traditional Christian thinking.
You must be a Fundamentalist Protestant and not a Catholic or
Orthodox. The terminology of "Mother of God" has existed from earliest
Christianity. It simply refers to the BVM asthe person who bore the
human nature of Jesus Christ. Everybody knows that Christ has a dual
nature of God and Man and everybody knows that the BVM is not the
Mother of God, the Father, or the divine nature of Jesus Christ, or the
Holy Trinity. She is the mother of the human nature of Christ. This is
still a great honor for a great saint. Mater Dei in Latin, or
Theotokis in Greek was used to contradict the early heresies about the
divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. Byzantine Christians honored
the BVMas much as Latin Christians. Mike
