 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |
|
 |
|
Responses:
Subject: Re: Offended
From: Lola Lee
Date: 06 Jun 1998 1:04 PM
With all due respect, this is a show about Russia, not Ukraine.If this had been a show about Ukraine, I'm sure something would have been mentioned as such you described in your message.
Subject: History
From: Karen Zill
Date: 06 Jun 1998 11:45 AM
I would like to respond to those who have written about historical inaccuracies in The Face of Russia television programs and Web site. The East Slavs who were Christianized in the 10th century A.D. were neither Russians, Ukrainians, nor Belarusans, but the common ancestors of those three modern peoples. The state they lived in is usually called (in English) "Kievan Rus", but unfortunately there is no good, accepted English word to refer to those pre-Russian/pre-Ukrainian/pre-Belarusan Eastern Slavs. An ideal word for them in English would be "Rusians", with the "u" pronounced "oo", but this word has never caught on in English. The culture of Kievan Rus' is the predecessor of the national cultures of the modern Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusan peoples.As in any historical topic, there are differences of opinion and interpretation of historical facts. Since The Face of Russia is presented as Dr. James Billington's own view of the development of Russia, presumably he is entitled to present those views. Incidents that occurred later in history, including but not limited to the Soviet era, do not change the facts (or Dr. Billington's interpretation) of historical, cultural, artistic, and linguistic developments in Kievan Rus' and its successor states and peoples.Your messages here in this Forum help to make us all aware that Ukraine has a separate and distinct history and national identity. As television producers, we are limited in how much we can fit into one program and we therefore must make choices. We hope that our viewers will use The Face of Russia as a starting point and take the opportunity to learn more about all of the peoples who produced the outstanding art featured in the series.
Subject: Re: Offended
From: R. M. Yaremko
Date: 06 Jun 1998 2:49 PM
Okay, so the program is about Russian history. That is why so many of us who are familiar with Ukrainian and with Russian history are so offended. This program purports to trace the art history of Russia when in fact that history at the time of Kyivan-Rus can only be described accuratly as Kyivan-Rus, AS IT EXISTED IN THE REGION NOW KNOWN AS UKRAINE, and NOT as "Russia" or "Russian." As a previous post noted, Russian (more correctly Moskovian) art and culture was virtually nonexistent (with the possible exception of Novhorod--a nonMoskovian art tradition) as a distinct form prior to the destruction of Kyiv by the Mongols in 1240. This program is an insult to the Ukrainian people, the direct descendants of the history portrayed in the June 22 program.--R. M. Yaremko
Subject: Re: History
From: Larisa Streeter
Date: 06 Jun 1998 3:52 PM
Ms. Karen Zill of WETA-TV takes the position that since there is "...no good, accepted English word to refer to those pre-Russian/pre-Ukrainian/pre-Belarusan Eastern Slavs..." the continued (mis)use of the adjective "Russian" uniformly to these groups of people is acceptable if not inevitable and perhaps even necessary.This is, IMO, an unacceptable and even shameful position for an organization (or a representative of an organization) which supposedly promotes public education and that prides itself in presenting "...programs of quality and integrity that recognize and challenge the intelligence of viewers...". The promulgation of an untruth simply because such action has been "convenient" or "conventional" in the past is still the promulgation of a lie.Ms. Zill stated, "An ideal word for them in English would be 'Rusians', with the 'u' pronounced 'oo', but this word has never caught on in English." I suggest to Ms. Zill that perhaps if historians and filmmakers and television producers who honestly care about the accuracy of the historical programs they present were to eschew the misnomer "Russians" and insist on and actively promote the use of the term 'Rusians" then the general public would "catch on" and start doing so, also. By continuing to use the incorrect term "Russians" you are reinforcing the public's misconceptions and encouraging the misidentification of Eastern Slavic nations.Ms. Zill says, "As in any historical topic, there are differences of opinion and interpretation of historical facts." Indeed the *interpretation* of historical facts may differ from historian to historian and political system to political system. However, the historical facts themselves remain *facts*. And the *facts* are that Kyivan Rus' is NOT synonymous with Russia, neither are the people of Kyivan Rus' synonymous with Russians.Ms. Zill says, "As television producers, we are limited in how much we can fit into one program and we therefore must make choices." I submit to you, Ms. Zill, and to your fellow producers that you made a singularly poor choice in deciding to wrongfully attribute the political and cultural history of Kyivan Rus' to one Eastern Slavic nation.As for your "..hope that our viewers will use The Face of Russia as a starting point and take the opportunity to learn more about all of the peoples who produced the outstanding art featured in the series," I think that hope is destined for disappointment. Certainly some small minority of viewers will be interested enough to investigate the true facts and learn the truth. Unfortunately, the majority will simply feel enlightened and educated by the "facts" as you presented them and will go merrily on their way believing that only the Russian nation can rightfully claim the heritage of Kyivan Rus'. In this, you have done a great disservice not only to the Ukrainian and Belorusian peoples, but to your viewers as well.
Subject: Offended
From: Dan Korolyshyn
Date: 06 Jun 1998 6:32 PM
That's the point Ms. Lee, the show is about Russia and should contain only the history of Russia and not the medieval history of Ukraine, Kyivan Rus. The history of Kyivan Rus is Ukrainian history, not Russian history. Just because a small portion of Russia and the some of the Finno-Ugrian and Slavic peoples of Russia were under Kyivan rule does not mean that they are the heirs of Kyivan history. Can the Jews or the French or the Tunisians claim the history of the Roman Empire for themselves just because they were under Roman rule and were beneficiaries of some aspects of Roman culture? I think not, likewise the Russians can not claim to be the heirs of the history of Kyivan Rus just because a small portion of their country was under the rule of Kyivan Rus and they received some civilization from Kyiv.Dan K.
Subject: Offended
From: Christine Potichny
Date: 06 Jun 1998 12:18 PM
Comments by Lola Lee & Karen Zwill only reiterate the ignorance/cluelessness of the American public regarding Eastern European history. They have been brainwashed by the Great Russian interpretation of history which negates the existence of Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Russian(Moskovian) art and culture were nonexistent prior to 1240, but the PBS viewers will never know this. Nor will they know that thousands of Ukrainian Icons were stolen and now reside in Moscow & St. Petersburg museums.I am glad Ms. Zwill is thankful for the Forum commentaries which made her aware that Ukraine has a separate and distinct history and national identity. However it is too late for the thousands who watched the series and have learned that Vladimir was a Russian Prince residing in Kievan Russia, converting the Russians who later painted Russian Icons. I am sure none of these viewers will use the program as a starting point in their continued education of Slavic history. However, you (Ms. Zwill & Lee) might consider reading The Ukrainian ICON from 11th-18th Centuries: From Byzantine Sources to the Baroque by Ludmilla Miliaeva. This book might illuminate you and give you a true starting point.
Subject: reply
From: D. Miller
Date: 06 Jun 1998 4:31 PM
The programme was not about Ukraine, but it misrepresented Ukrainian history as Russia's own origins and beginnings. This is teaching a new generation a false history which has been foisted on the world since the beginning of the 18th century.Where PBS strives for accurate reporting and documentaries, they have failed to corroborate independently what they presented and find the truth. Admittedly it takes serious investigation to get past the plethora of bad books by misinformed but otherwise generally well-intentioned historians, who have parroted fiction rather than researched truth and prime sources.
Ms. Zill is quite in error, she ought read the research paper posted in this forum in two parts--Ukraine was Kyivan-Rus', and the term Ukraine was used centuries prior to 1701 or thereabouts when Czar Peter the Great literally invented "Russia". Prior to 1701 there was no Russia or Russians, there was the principality of Muscovy and Muscovites, and before that various tribes, primarily Ugro-finnic though a dozen others, which distinctly developed and became Muscovites and Russians, never Rus', Kyivan Rus', Kyiv, Ukraine nor Ukrainian. However, the history and development of Rus' and Kyiv amd Kyivan Rus' did become disinctly Ukrainian and the land borders of Kyivan Rus' and Ukraine remain about the same today.
The development of Rus' even as portrayed on the PBS forum timetable for Russian history includes dates such as 988 and leaders/events which distinctly were not Russian, but are properly the heritage of Ukraine and Ukrainians.
Ms. Zill's argument that there were no Ukrainians is factually in error and is also unwittingly propagating error.
The PBS special is factually in error where it attempts to narrate the origins of Russia and the Russian people as true.
Subject: reply to Ms. Zill
From: D. Miller
Date: 06 Jun 1998 4:41 PM
I omitted to define Ms. Zill's primary error. I believe she is sincere and well-meaning in her statements. She proclaims the theory that there were no Russians, Ukrainians, etc. but there was one common ancestry and origin. This view, while accepted by many historians has no proof, no basis in fact, and is refuted in the research paper referenced previously in this forum.The view originated as a means of claiming the heritage that Europe lusted after centuries ago when the Kyivan empire was the height of European culture and Russia did not exist, in order to appropriate prestige and historicity that neither Muscovy nor Russia ever possessed. If I find time I could find historical examples of this to post.
Subject: Kiev/
From: Charlton Price
Date: 06 Jun 1998 5:11 PM
As Dr. Billington's book THE ICON AND THE AXE (q.v.) discusses and explains in convincing detail, most everything related to "Rus"/Russia in the cultural (not political or nationalistic)sense began in KIEV. Kiev of course is the capital of whatis now Ukraine, an independent nation (and that old domain probably included territory that would now be consider Belarus, etc. and more). In the early days, Moscow was considered an outpost, the boonies, and is probably still so considered by understandably patriotic Ukranians, who at last have their own nation.
Subject: Kiev, Ukraine
From: James Welsh
Date: 06 Jun 1998 11:30 PM
I had a teacher in High school who taught Social Studies and Russian. He always blanched when someone referred to him as a Russian. He responded pointedly , " I am Ukrainian ". I think I am beginning to understand the depth of his feeling. I don't know about anyone else but as a novice I'm going to use this discussion as a starting point for further study. P.S. It's still a great program, Ms. Zwill.
Subject: Owners of history?
From: Kathy
Date: 07 Jul 1998 11:55 AM
Messages on this topic illustrate the tribalism and inability to accept the past and move on that caused the 20th century to be the bloodiest on record. Serbs and Albanians, Germans and French, Germans and Poles, Russians and Poles, Germans and Russians, Greeks and Turks - the confrontations appear endless and, to outsiders, equally pointless. Who cares what happened between your ancestors and mine hundreds of years ago? However, if your grandparents treated mine badly, then I'd look for OUR contemporary common interests, compromise the differences between us, and make sure that children from both sides learn accurate, nonpartisan history. What is gained from behaving otherwise? Another genration of hatred, humiliation, death, and destruction?As to a claim on history, what a ludicrous idea. History and culture are common heritage. They don't belong to anyone; nobody "owns" the past. Biologically, my ancestors were European and Cherokee. Culturally, like the majority of Americans, I am a child of the West (that does include the Roman Emipre, by the way!). Since, in myself and millions of others culture and biology do not coincide, I am free to claim all of history as my birthright.
Finally, I've only watched one part of the series which is, after all, just a TV show. On the whole, I thought it was pretty good, especially the visuals of art and architecture which is what TV does best, and I'll be looking for future episodes. I hope the contributors to this Forum will watch too, with more open minds.
Subject: Just a comment
From: APerson
Date: 07 Jul 1998 2:45 AM
I was thinking of how to reply to all this, when Kathy said just about all I wanted to say. I join everything she said.I'd like to add just one more thing. It is true that in the 12th century Kiev was a major center for Southeastern Europe, and the area of Moscow was "boonies". And the reason why some keep looking at that time with such intensity is because it is the other way around now, and they don't want to face it. Present-day Ukraine is in miserable condition, and it will continue to be in miserable condition as long as people keep looking at the 12th century, or the 19th, or even year 1991, instead of facing the present.
Right now there is great amount of poverty in Ukraine. The infrastructure is in shambles. The ties that made people relate to each other are badly damaged. There is tremendous amount of cynicism and selfishness. Moreover, the KGB (or whatever it is called now) is again raising its ugly head. The very same people who used to commit atrocities for "undivided Soviet Union" are now committing the for "Independent Ukraine". I know this from very dependable sources. Even though I live in the U.S., I am affraid to damage them, which is why I am leaving this unsigned. (BTW, Soros fund in Ukraine is thoroughly infiltrated by the KGB.)
Subject: Ha
From: Vladimir Kosovski
Date: 04 Apr 1999 5:59 PM
As Kramer so rightfully put it "the Ukraine is weak my friend".
Subject: Rus
From: Vitaliy Tikhomirov
Date: 07 Jul 1999 10:25 PM
Who is Rurik then for you, Ukrainian? I think, he was Rus. Nikolay Gogol (or , maybe, Hohol in Ukrainian) was borm Ukrainian, but he also belongs to Russian culture. And why do you call communism Russian? Our common ancestors, Rus, had no idea about communism.
Subject: Russian or Ukranian?
From: Olga
Date: 08 Aug 2000 5:15 AM
Friends! My one Grandad is Ukranian, the other is Belorussian, my one granny is Russian, the other is Lithuanian. What nationality am I? Can you answer? Is it the problem for discusson if we are civilized people? It's the question of history but not of the relations between people.Olga
Subject: Re: Offended
From: Maria
Date: 11 Nov 2001 2:51 AM
What the English-speaking readers of this thread might not know is that the word "Ukraine" actually means "outskirts". Of Russia, that is. Those "offended" might consider changing the name of the country altogether...
Subject: offended
From: Max
Date: 06 Jun 2002 1:21 AM
Outskirts not of russia but of the Great Arian Belt and the Black Sea, and ancient territory of Ukraine was the connecting point of trade and different cultures. Read and learn don’t just take some ones idea and state it as your own.During that time, well forget during that time, even idea about russia didn’t existed when Ukraine officially had Kiev as the central city. You talk about Ukraine name, but how about you fined out what Rus, Ros, Russit and Russia means, oh I am shore you will be greatly surprised! Hehehe!
Subject: Claim on history is not ............
From: Pain
Date: 06 Jun 2002 1:30 AM
“As to a claim on history, what a ludicrous idea” --------> Oh nooo, claiming history is not ludicrous idea, it’s the same as claming and accepting responsibility for your own actions, good or bad (russia always takes all good stuff). History, religion, freedom and beliefs are only some of few things for which people are ready to give their lives. But I see you can’t understand this as you are “European and Cherokee” and “a child of the West”. Cherokee nation was the Great One, but I see you and your parents haven’t inherited that Pride and Ideology, what a waste!I disagree with you Kathy completely, as there is no future with out the past, past defiance as and let as understand ourselves. How can you go in life if you don’t know who you are and where you came from?I also see you list of “20th Century the bloodiest on record” is missing Ukrainian/russian wars---- Fake Famine in 1930s, russians elimination of Ukrainian history, language, culture, knowledge, religion, mass executions of simply said “Smart Ukrainians” and the list is just endless! You want “make sure that children from both sides learn accurate, nonpartisan history”. You got to crazy, as it’s so impossible, there always was and will be segregation until only ONE is left.You wish to talk about current times, so let’s talk. You said “if your grandparents treated mine badly, then I'd look for OUR contemporary common interests, compromise the differences between us. “ How about this last 10 years, USSR collapsed and those fragments of communists with their russian imperialistic ideology spread their claws all around Ukraine, draining its blood and all for the glory of mother russia. I was starving to death and choking on that “compromise the differences between us” every minuet of my life. I couldn’t get no kind of job even cleaning, while so called noviy ryskiy New rusians were driving around in their Mercedes and eating out in the best kitchens in the country. I was seeing madness, powerlessness and hopelessness in the people’s faces, street crime and violence was rising to the highs never seen before. Do not try to tell me that’s not true as I lived there and day in day I saw people getting killed and their sculls crashed with no emotions at all just for peace of bread. I lost many good friends.Have you ever looked in to the eyes of desperate mother who is holding her last dying child and asking for a peace of bread form a New russian who has more money than God and who turns her down with disgust on his face? You will not understand me until you experience it all. Don’t tell me you will make a compromise with a person like that. They feed on our flash and prosper on our corpses. Russian government have penetrated every last organization in Ukraine, they run as like useless pawns and suck as dry while we can’t do a thing. I would spill rivers of blood to fell the oceans, and let there be some innocent on the way, but it would be for the greater cause, to bring a stop to my country suffering, I know you would do the same for your country if the same thing was done.I cannot look at the russia face any more even thought they are my brothers and sisters and I am only 18.
Subject: Get offended all you want
From: Srboslav
Date: 07 Jul 2002 5:08 PM
I love you all people!This is just like I'm reading comments on the news on some Serbian site.Same is going on between folks in former Yugoslavia.Just like woman said,to hell with it,who cares.Sure they gonna teach they kids what they wantand how they wont.First you win the war,than you write some history.Before you do so, rest of us will take name "Ukraine" for what it really is-outskirts of Russia.By the way if it wasn't for those "kid eating Russians" parts now knownas Ukraine would be something as Afghanistan is.Done by Turks,Mongolsand so on and than abounded by everyone.Maybe in that case, people over there would be dying from food overdose.Or again if Hitler took over, theywould serve Jews and Africans for dinner.You see,20 million Russians dieto make sure that don't happen.I'm not saying I would like to se them rule Serbia,but as a Slav can't deny,they are greatest of us all.
Subject: Russia
From: Shelley
Date: 01 Jan 2000 11:17 AM
HIMy name is Shelley--I live in Iowa...and have just been in touch with a Russian school-I read about a teacher in Iowa who was communicating with these students and they were sending them things from the US.I will admit I don't know much about Russia...but I am starting to read about it now.I read your post...and I think you must know what you are talking about since you had family there. I was wondering if you knew of any websites I should look for who could give me an accurate view of the history.Did you live in Russia yourself? This is a touchy question--but I will ask you anyway and please forgive my ignorance of your homeland. I want to send things of 'use' to the Russian children and school....I honestly don't know how 'in need' they are.Do you know if they would be insulted by gifts of sweaters, hats, clothing, etc.? I don't want to offend anyone--but I have so much here in the U.S. and I feel I need to share ....I am doing this because I feel guilty for having so much when others have so little.Are you in touch with anyone from there now? Can you give me specific ideas on what to send to them---I honestly don't know if basic things--like soap, toothpaste...things like that---do they need things like that? I don't want to offend the teacher --I asked him what they needed and he didn't say too much--the teacher who corresponds with him here in the states says it's because of his pride.....Please help me...I want to help, but I don't want to insult anyone.....I would really appreciate any info you can give me..thanks so muchShelley
Subject: I can help you
From: Olga
Date: 03 Mar 2000 12:43 PM
Hi!I was born in Moscow. I got a great degree. What would you like to know? Olga
Subject: and the debate rages on...
From: Mikhailo Ignatievich
Date: 02 Feb 2002 4:24 PM
To add to the last posting, Ukrainians are indeed a nation without a name. Ukraine means 'borderland' in Russian, and as such, the word was applied not only to the Ukraine, but to the other borderlands of Russia as well (there is a 17th century folk song, I recall, that has words "there in the ukraine (borderlands), in Siberia"). The other name that existed for ukrainians in Russia, malorossy ("little Russians") is probably even less acceptable :)As for the Kievan Rus period, the divisions were tribal (poliane around Kieve, slovene around Novgorod, krivichi, drevliane, etc.) Giving priority to any one of them, like poliane, is preposterous - all were ruled by Rurikid princes and all contributed to the early East Slavic culture. Just think about the major cities of Kievan Rus - Kiev, Novgorod, Chernigov, Rostov, Suzdal, Smolensk.. Kievan Rus was indeed an East Slavic state only a part of which was located in modern-day Ukraine. All 3 East Slavic nations today can claim Kievan Rus as part of their heritage.
Subject: Moscow debate
From: Mikhailo Ignatievich
Date: 02 Feb 2002 4:28 PM
By the way, the author seems to mistake the history of Muscovy with the history of Russia in general. Moscow indeed became prominent only in the 13th century, and was involved in struggle for supremacy with Tver', Vladimir, Suzdal' and other principalities of Kievan Rus that did not fall under the domination of the Poles. As you all hopefully understand, equating the history of Muscovy with the history of Russia is no less ridiculous than starting Russian historic timeline with the founding of St. Petersburg.
Subject: To
From: vlad_chestnov
Date: 08 Aug 2002 10:54 PM
Yeah, rigth. How did you forget to mention the greatest discovery by the Ukranian Academy of Science in "Kiyiv" - that Adam and Eve actually were Ukrainian? Come on, even the word "Ukraine" never existed until the late XVIII century, as well as your "Ukranian" language. If you gets offended by historical truth, I just can feel sorry for you.