PROMOTING PEACE

March 25, 1998
		Four years after a genocidal civil war took the lives of over 800,000 people and sent 2 million refugees into neighboring nations, President Clinton arrived in Rwanda. Following a background report, Margaret Warner and guests discuss the president's visit to the country and the search for peace and stability in the region.

Crisis in Central Africa index. Jan. 7, 1998: Hutus and Tutsis take up fighting again. Sept. 2, 1997: An interview with author Philip Gourevitch Dec. 24, 1996: A historical perspective on Rwanda and Burundi. Nov. 29, 1996: Rwandan refugees return home. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Africa.   Rwanda Information Exchange The U.N. International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda The 1994 Genocide, from Frontline Human Rights Watch on Rwanda Embassy of the Republic of Rwanda	MARGARET WARNER: And for that we're joined by MacArthur DeShazer, executive director for the National Summit on Africa, a private organization that promotes U.S./African relations. He was director of African affairs at the National Security Council from 1993 to ‘96 during the genocide in Rwanda. Olara Otunnu, president of the International Peace Academy, a private group that promotes conflict resolution; he was Uganda's ambassador to the United Nations and minister of foreign affairs in the 1980's; and Alison DesForges, a consultant for Human Rights Watch/Africa and an Africa historian. She joins us from the newsroom of Station WXAA in Albany, New York. And Mr. Otunnu, starting with you, the theme of the day for the President and the leaders he met with was preventing another genocide, a Rwanda-like genocide. How real do you think the danger is right now in that part of Africa?
	A great danger .
	OLARA OTUNNU: The danger is extremely great. But what is important is that we know the factors that give rise to conflict. It is to do with the way in which diversities manage within the societies, the prospect of ethnic hegemony by one group over others; it is to do with the denial of democracy; it is to do with the manner in which resources are distributed within the same country, where some areas and some sectors are favored and others are neglected. So we know these factors and these are the factors that have to be addressed long-term in order to ensure that there's no repetition of the tragedies of which the President spoke. MARGARET WARNER: Ms. DesForges, do you agree with that analysis of the level of the danger and what the reasons are? ALISON DES FORGES: I certainly do. The situation in that region of Africa is particularly precarious. The genocide was a devastating catastrophe, which will leave consequences for decades to come. The continuing insurgencies in Rwanda, in Congo, and in Burundi all promise to develop. There is no immediate end in sight. It's very promising to hear the kind of declaration the President has just signed with the leaders at the Kampala summit talking about a new commitment to end genocide, but it's a statement that's long on rhetoric and short on specifics. We don't see exactly how this can be done. MARGARET WARNER: Sticking with the analysis of the problem and the danger, Mr. DeShazer, again, do you agree that it really is quite acute? And where would you say the danger is greatest of say the three countries that Ms. DesForges just mentioned, these three neighboring countries, Rwanda, Burundi, and Congo? MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: Well, I agree with both the speakers before that the danger is as they've indicated. I think what needs--in terms of identifying what regions--what countries face the greatest danger at this point, I think both in Rwanda and Burundi right now we have very serious problems between the Hutus and Tutsis in trying to determine how to best govern themselves and how best to establish democratic institutions within the countries and work out the differences. So I would say both in Rwanda and Burundi and the potential, and probably the Congo as well. MARGARET WARNER: And just to remind our viewers, the Hutus and the Tusis are the two tribes that have been vying for power, certainly both in Rwanda and Burundi. MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: That's exactly right. MARGARET WARNER: Does it feel to you the way it did when you were at the NSC and the Rwanda genocide was just about to occur, in other words, does it feel that acute to you? MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: I don't think so at this point. I think that given the negotiations that have been taking place between various elements within the international community and entities within both Burundi and Rwanda, I think that we are more focused and more engaged in trying to help solve these problems than we were before. MARGARET WARNER: Olara Otunnu, again, sticking still with the analysis of the situation, you talked about that this part of the world or Africa isn't managing its diversity well. Now, there are other parts of Africa within tribes, with long histories of enmity. Why is--is there some common underlying problem here that makes it particularly difficult for say the Hutus and the Tutsis to manage theirs? OLARA OTUNNU: No. The issue of diversity is universal, and diversity by itself doesn't give rise to conflict. It is when political leaders, demagogues, begin to use this factor and exploit it as a way of gaining or attaining power that it becomes an explosive factor. And when diversity is used as a basis for distributing resources, favoring some ethnic groups and ignoring others, or when diversity is used to establish ethnic hegemony, one group establishing hegemony over others, then it becomes an explosive factor. Indeed, I would add there's one other new element in the region of Africa today. We are seeing for the first time the building of military and political alliances across borders. But these alliances are being built along ethnic lines. So the explosive factor which until now was within countries at a national level is now being exported across borders, and this is very different, incidentally, from what Africans always held dear, the notion of Pan Africanism, which is about uniting the peoples of Africa, not dividing them, and we're seeing a very active effort to divide the peoples of the Great Lakes region along ethnic lines, across borders. MARGARET WARNER: And give us just one example of that and explain why the government in question would be doing that, that is, making ties with rebels or insurgents in another country. OLARA OTUNNU: We've seen alliances being built from Uganda to Rwanda to Burundi to the People's Republic of the Congo, military and political alliances, and these common causes have taken on a very acute ethnic dimension to it, and I think this is extremely dangerous. It will come back to haunt that region of Africa. And this needs to be addressed by both the national leaders, but also by the international community. It's a very dangerous development, indeed. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. DeShazer, you're nodding your head. You agree with that? MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: I agree 100 percent. MARGARET WARNER: Again, why are these governments doing this?
	An important summit meeting.
	MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: Well, of course, they all have their particular agendas. I think it's important to note though, just talking in terms of getting beyond their problems, they--the meeting that the president--the summit that was convened today, I think, is extraordinarily important in helping to bridge the gaps that--and the situation just previously described. I think it's extremely important that the President and these leaders get together to talk to these issues and show that the international community, represented in this case by the President's visit, is engaged in--that there is--support within the international community for the situation there. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Ms. DesForges, you're--let me let Ms. DesForges in here for a minute. Give me your assessment of what it is going to take to prevent another major conflict and whether you agree with Mr. DeShazer that the steps taken today are an important step. ALISON DES FORGES: Well, I agree with Mr. DeShazer that it is, indeed, satisfying to see the concern on the part of these various leaders, as well as on the part of President Clinton. But I want to stress that talk is not enough. We've had talk for a long time, and it's done us no good at all. What we need is some specific, concrete measures. For example, this region is awash in small arms. The arms themselves don't make the conflict, but certainly they make the conflict deadlier. We need action to cut down on the arms trade into this region. We need some-- MARGARET WARNER: Where are they getting the arms? Excuse me. Where are they getting the arms? ALISON DES FORGES: They're getting the arms from a number of sources. In fact, it's more difficult to say where they are not getting the arms from because there's enormous competition to sell arms in this region from many manufacturers. In addition to that, it's extremely important for there to be speedy, firm action on the front of justice. The international tribunal has made a very small beginning in terms of justice for the Rwanda genocide, but that needs to be extended, extended in time so that anyone who is guilty of genocide presently would be brought to trial--as well as the other part of the tribunal's responsibility, which is to deal with crimes against humanity. We've talked about an international criminal tribunal. But this is a long way down the road. We need to make the current tribunal far more effective in its actions. So it's good to have the President talking with these various heads of state. It's good to have a firm line put forward about the need to prevent genocide and crimes against humanity, but that talk is certainly not enough. MARGARET WARNER: Well, now the leaders who met with the President today said they weren't going to help insurgents across borders. Do you think we're going to see a change? Does that declaration make you think that this kind of activity is going to stop? ALISON DES FORGES: I would be extremely surprised to see that declaration enforced. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Otunnu, how about you? OLARA OTUNNU: Well, I think I agree that the most important thing here are not the words but the deeds, the deeds of these governments and their leaders. Secondly, it is very important that the international community does not commit itself to sponsoring a leader or a community of others but to sponsoring certain policies and principles, the principles of democracy, multi-party democracy, of peaceful resolution of conflict, observance of human rights, and more even patterns of development. And that is extremely important that no community within this region should feel excluded, whether in terms of political power or in terms of economic power. There must be a sense of participation, a sense of inclusion, a sense of power-sharing. This has been a fundamental problem within this region of Africa, and finally I would say it is very important that the President's message should be conveyed consistently across Africa, whether it is a message of multi-party democracy, the message of human rights or the prevention of conflict, it should be the same message in all African countries and all governments and countries should be judged by the same criteria. This is exceedingly important. MARGARET WARNER: All right. And very briefly, because I want to get to the others, but you just laid out four things. How well do you think foreign governments are doing on your benchmarks right now, and how well do you think the African governments are doing on your benchmarks? OLARA OTUNNU: Well, I think on the part of African government, I want to see more deeds and less words. And I want to see the African government address their people more than they address the international media and the international community. They should address their people. On the part of the wide international community, there is still much too much of double standard and inconsistency in the way in which we seek to promote democracy, we seek to promote human rights, and we seek to promote more even patterns of development. And I hope that we shall try to produce more consistency and try to look at the deeds of these governments and leaders and not their words. MARGARET WARNER: Would you agree? What's your take on the performance on both ends of this equation?
	The need for a consistent policy.
	MAC ARTHUR DE SHAZER: Well, I agree that what the international community and specifically the United States have not done is be consistent in our support for the countries of Africa. I think that, as was just noted, African countries have also got a role to play and they have not done that as well as they should. And part of it has to do with the fact that I think that there is an unfamiliarity with the institutions or the building blocks of democracy. And they've got a lot of work to do with understanding that, and we've got a lot within the international community to do with guiding--helping to guide these countries down the path toward a democratic government. MARGARET WARNER: Ms. DesForges, your assessment of how well both ends are doing briefly. ALISON DES FORGES: Well, I wouldn't agree completely with Mr. DeShazer. I believe that there is within the African continent a very substantial number of people who understand very, very well all the concepts of human rights and all of the building blocks of democracy. Unfortunately, they are not the people who have the guns. So the direction of U.S. policy should be not in support of all countries of Africa or all leaders of Africa but rather in firm support of those who do as far as the ideals of human rights; you do protect all of the citizens of their countries equally. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Thank you all three very, very much.