WEI JINGSHENG
December 10, 1997

Prior to his release last month, Wei Jingsheng, an electrician turned dissident, spent nearly 18 continuous years in a Chinese prison for his anti-government writings. In an interview with Phil Ponce, Mr. Wei discusses the current situation in China.

March 9, 1999: A U.S. scientist is fired for allegeldly passing nuclear information to China Feb. 26, 1999: The State Department criticizes China's crackdown on dissidents. Dec. 30, 1998: China cracksdown on political opponents. July 7, 1998: The Tibetan question. June 29, 1998: President Clinton challenges China on human rights issues. June 24, 1998: Three dissidents discuss Clinton's visit to China. June 15, 1998: The Chinese ambassador on Clinton's trip April 27, 1998: An interview Chinese dissident Wang Dan Dec. 10, 1997: An interview with Chinese dissident Wei Jingsheng Browse the Newshour's coverage of Asia   Embassy of the Peoples Republic of China Human Rights Watch State Department human rights report on China	PHIL PONCE: Wei Jingsheng, an electrician turned dissident, served almost 18 years in Chinese prisons for his anti-government writings. Last month, soon after the U.S. visit of Chinese President Jiang Zemin, Wei was released and sent into exile in the United States. Since arriving, he's been receiving medical treatment and meeting with the American press. On Monday, he went to the White House for a private session with President Clinton. I talked with Wei in the offices of Human Rights Watch, which organized his Washington trip. PHIL PONCE: Mr. Wei, first of all, thank you very much for speaking to us. You've been here almost a month. What were the things that you were not expecting that have come as surprises? WEI JINGSHENG, Chinese Dissident: (speaking through interpreter) The biggest surprise is that the people I met from President Clinton to an ordinary nurse. They're concerned for the Chinese people--are not like the Communist propaganda for the purpose of money, so this impressed me deeply, although in the past I did not believe in Communist propaganda. But very often I sort of believed it halfway. But now with firsthand experience I see that the Communist propaganda has been false. PHIL PONCE: Do you think people might interpret your release as a sign that China is changing in a basic way?
	Is China changing?
	WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) No, definitely we cannot make such a conclusion because when they release me, it should be--they should follow my demand, allow me to stay in my home in Beijing. What they do is to put me into exile. In fact, this is a violation of human rights. So how can we say that the human rights conditions in China has improved? PHIL PONCE: You were in prison for almost 18 years. Why did you go through what you went through? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) I think the most important point--of course, there are many reasons--but I think the most important point is that once you believe that your cause is just to going prison and through your imprisonment you can improve the lives of billions of people in your own country, then I think it's justified. When I was in prison, many police and friends and family members raised the same questions: Is it worth it to going to prison? But they often raise the same questions, and I've also considered this authority. I think it's worthwhile. PHIL PONCE: President Clinton has a policy of engagement with China whereby engaging in trade with China and other ways he hopes to influence human rights. Is the President's policy of engagement working? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) I feel that this question can be looked at from two sides. One is when you deal with the Chinese Communists. You cannot say that's wrong. But you must have the definite pressure behind you. Then they're willing to listen to you. Otherwise, without sufficient pressure, they will not even bother to listen to you. On the other hand, I think any contact with China should only not for economic benefits--it should also involve the American values to promote the economic interests--the interests of freedom and democracy in China, because right now through trade the only beneficiaries are the bureaucrats and the members of their families. Only a handful of people benefitted from Sino-American trade, but the ordinary people--ordinary folks--reap very little benefit. So we should find a way to change such a reality. Sino-American trade should benefit more for the lives of the American and Chinese people and not just for a handful of Chinese Communist officials, or help the Chinese Communists to lessen its economic difficulties. Only through international pressure they're willing to make a little reform. Of course, we've tried to push them towards greater reforms, so an important point is not to help the Chinese Communists to overcome their economic difficulties. PHIL PONCE: How would you say most Chinese people feel about this question. Is it more important to feed more than a billion people, or to give them the benefits of democracy? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) Of course, food and clothes--clothing for any country are the most important items in order to live, but China is so poor the main reason was the Communist system. Even they, themselves, have to admit that their past system has problems and, thus, the poverty. PHIL PONCE: So you do not believe there can be true economic progress without democratic principles as well?
	Democracy and economic progress.
	WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) Right. That's my view. Without a democratic system. Even with a little bit of economic achievement, just like now, most of the benefits of those achievements were going to the pockets of a handful of people. Most of the people will not get any benefit, and also there will be potential dangers because many situations have shown that the Chinese economy is ridden with problems. Like a ship, very soon you'll sink. Even the economic development of China has entered a very dangerous and critical stage. It all depends on which direction it's going. If reforms are quickened, then there is hope. But if the one-party dictatorship continues, including the direct control of most of the enterprises, then under such a combination, then there will be great chaos in China. I think no one wishes to see such a scenario, particularly the Chinese people. PHIL PONCE: Mr. Wei, right now, there does not appear to be a viable pro-democracy movement. Does that discourage you in light of your sacrifices? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) No, not in the least, because my feeling is just the opposite. Some foreign reporters--especially when you point the cameras to them--you seldom hear the truth because they fear Communist revenge. So the majority of the Chinese people want to have democracy, and their demands are stronger and their understanding is clearer, and this is the best foundation for the future of China. First, the development in China will be different from the United States and other western democracies. In the West any campaign or any event will progress by stages, and everything will be very clear, but in China everything's suppressed by the Communists. No resistance is allowed, so once things erupt, everything will come out very suddenly, so you cannot see beforehand the gradual emergence of something. Of course, we all hope for something to emerge. We're all working towards this direction, but the Communist Party will not allow you to do that. They try to suppress everything, and then only at the last moment things go erupt, just like the Soviet Union. No one could have forecasted such disintegration, and that's the difference between democracy--democracies and Communist countries. PHIL PONCE: So do you believe the change is going to be gradual, or an eruption, as you put it, something very quick? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) The resistance and pressure have been formed gradually, but the eruption at the last moment will be sudden. Like a balloon the air goes in gradually, but we know it will burst soon, but we don't know exactly when. We do not know exactly at what moment. No one can pinpoint the moment. PHIL PONCE: So will you continue to speak out? Will you do some writing? Will you broadcast messages over the radio? What kinds of things might you do?
	Continuing to speak out.
	WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) In 1979, I could only use the democracy war, but even then I find out that my thoughts have been propagated very fast. But now there are many new things, the telephone, Internet, other things, many channels. So I think now it would not be as difficult as things were in 1979, with regard to the democracy war. PHIL PONCE: Do you worry that now that you're out of prison, interest in you might fade and that you will lose your effectiveness? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter)No, I do not worry at all; quite the opposite. I hope that everyone will cool off so I will have more time to write my book and understand the conditions in the United States and learn new things. Recently, I have not been able to do any one of those things, so not to say I'm tired of it, but I'm physically tired, and hope for more time for book writing and for learning. Of course, through news media I like to have direct exchanges with the American and the Chinese people. That's also very important. So first and foremost I must satisfy the needs and demands of the news media. PHIL PONCE: But it's possible that when one is a prisoner, one's status as a prisoner brings him attention. I don't know if I'm putting this correctly, but is there a possibility that the novelty of your being free might wear off, that people might stop listening to you because you've been around for a while? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) That's possible, but I'm not worried. I have many things to do. I think my life will always be very full, aside from the time I was in the prison. PHIL PONCE: Right now, there does not appear to be an obvious leader in the exiled dissident community. Might that be you? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) From everything I've heard everyone supports me to be such a leader, but I think a leader should be formed gradually in the whole process of the campaign. As President Clinton said, it's a process where other people give responsibilities to you, so I'm concerned. Now, if we can cooperate, of course, leaders or otherwise, I don't really care. If they think I should shoulder the responsibilities, that doesn't matter. But for those who I cannot work with or not willing to work together, so I believe question of leadership is really a matter of everyone working together, coming out with ideas for a common goal. Then we can better push forward the democracy movement in China. Once the Chinese people rise up and resist, many leaders will emerge. I think there are many more people in China with better abilities. I'm not worried there will be a lack of leadership in the future of China. PHIL PONCE: Mr. Wei, do you think you will ever see your homeland again? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) Oh, definitely, I'll see my homeland again. There should be no question of that. PHIL PONCE: Under what circumstances might you see your homeland, do you think? WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) I think when the Chinese Communists will not allow me to go back, I will not be able to go back. But let's say there are other possibilities. If the Congress people need me to go back, I will go back, even if I were to be in prison again, I'll go back. But at the present moment most of the friends are saying that it would be more appropriate for me to stay overseas because I'll be able to do more things. So now I can say that I really do not belong to myself. Wei Jingsheng has become a public property. I should listen to everyone's views. PHIL PONCE: Mr. Wei, I thank you very much for speaking with us. WEI JINGSHENG: (speaking through interpreter) I'm most grateful.