NEWSMAKER: SAMUEL BERGER

September 9, 1999
		Following a background report, President Clinton's National Security Adviser discusses the U.S. reaction to the crisis in East Timor in the wake of the Pentagon's suspension of military relations with Indonesia.

Online NewsHour Special Report: East Timor Independence Sept. 9, 1999: A background report on the crisis in E. Timor. Online Backgrounder: A look at East Timor's stormy history. Sept. 8, 1999: An interview with 1996 Nobel Peace Prize winer Jose Ramos-Horta. Sept. 7, 1999: Two experts discuss the militia activities in East Timor and how Indonesia and the U.N. can end them. Sept. 7, 1999: Indonesia institutes martial law in East Timor. Sept. 6, 1999: The Carter Center's lead vote monitor discusses the post-election violence. Sept. 3, 1999: East Timor chooses independence. Sept. 2, 1999: U.N. workers are killed as militia attacks continue. Sept. 1, 1999: Militias lead an uprising outside the U.N. compound. Oct. 25, 1996: Online Forum: Nobel Peace Prize winner Jose Ramos-Horta responds to viewer questions. June 2, 1998: Indonesia attempts to form a democratic government. May 22, 1998: A discussion on changes in the Indonesian government. May 21, 1998: Indonesia in the wake of Suharto's resignation. May 20, 1998: Should Suharto resign? May 19, 1998: Suharto announces plans to step down. May 15, 1998: A report on the riots in Jakarta. May 14, 1998: Students protest against Suharto. Nov. 13, 1996: A discussion with Jose Ramos-Horta. Oct. 11, 1996: Two East Timorese dissidents win the Nobel Peace Prize. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Asia.     United Nations Mission in East Timor Indonesian Embassy in Washington National Council of Timorese Resistance U.S. Embassy in Jakarta Carter Center	JIM LEHRER: And to an official U.S. perspective on East Timor from President Clinton's National Security Adviser, Samuel Berger. He joins us now from the old executive office building here in Washington. Mr. Berger, welcome. SAMUEL BERGER: Good evening. JIM LEHRER: First, is there anything that you can add to that report about the situation there today? Is it still deteriorating, people still being killed and moved around against their will? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, would I say there still has been a failure of the Indonesian military to assert control over the situation. JIM LEHRER: Is there any question in your mind and that of the president that the east... that the Indonesian military is responsible for what's going on in East Timor?
	What is the Indonesian military's role?
	SAMUEL BERGER: I don't think there's any question at the very least that there are elements of the Indonesian military that are quite actively involved in this suppression. Whether that is the official policy of the Indonesian military, it certainly is the policy of some of the commanders in East Timor who are aiding and abetting the militia and certainly not controlling them. Notwithstanding the fact that President Habibie has now sent several more battalions of forces to East Timor, we've yet to see them establish control. JIM LEHRER: But the U.S. does not know for sure whether or not the shots are being called-- no pun intended-- from Jakarta or by rouge elements of the army in East Timor? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I think it's difficult to know for sure where the breakdown here is and where the complicity is. President Habibie has assured us on many occasions that he would dispatch the military and assert control. That hasn't happened. General Wanto, who is the head of the Indonesian military, has made similar representations to General Shelton, Chairman of Joint Chiefs, and today our Pacific Commander Admiral Blair, that has not yet happened. So one I think has to assume that there is some degree of complicity of the Indonesian military in an effort to undermine the expression of the East Timorese people on August 30. JIM LEHRER: And that was the reason the U.S. suspended the military relationship with the Indonesian army today? SAMUEL BERGER: That's right. We have made consistently over the past several days, directly with our…indirectly through allies in the region, with the Secretary-General Kofi Annan, two fundamental points to the Indonesians: either they had an obligation and responsibility to take control of the situation to prevent the violence and the mass displacement of people; or they needed to invite in an international peacekeeping force which would be prepared to try to establish order.
	President Clinton responds
	JIM LEHRER: Now, the president used that word "invite" several times today, as well in his news conference. I mean you, there will be no international force that will go in there unless Indonesian invites it in? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I think the ideal situation would be for the United Nations to obviously authorize such a force that would enable many of the Asian countries to participate. I think in the absence of that authorization, that participation would be greatly diminished. JIM LEHRER: Now, the president said that he personally was going to make sure that... he was... he essentially said that financial aid, anything that he could do as president of the United States, and he would urge others in the region, to essentially blackmail Indonesia and say, "you either do something about this, or you're going to pay a huge price economically." is that a correct reading? SAMUEL BERGER: I would not call it blackmail. I think what the president said is that one way or the other, the Indonesians are going to pay a very heavy price for failing to implement the consultation, the referendum that took place a little over a week ago. The international community is outraged by this. The international financial institutions I think are going to have great problems restoring assistance in an atmosphere of chaos. So it's an inevitable practical fact that, unless the Indonesians establish order or allow an international force to establish order, they're going to suffer economically. And the president said today that he would look very carefully in terms of any decisions we would make with respect to assistance in whether or not they were acting to do that. JIM LEHRER: If there is in fact an international force, would the U.S. contribute troops?
	A possible U.S. troop commitment?
	SAMUEL BERGER: Well, the president has said that we would support such a force in some fashion. I think it ought to be very much Asian-led, Asian-directed force extremely important in an Asian context that that's the case. The Australians have stepped forward. They've indicated that they would take the lead. There are ways that we could support such a force ranging from logistics and communications and lift to other kinds of assistance. And we are looking at those options. We've got people in Canberra now working with the Australians. The Australians have indicated of course that they would like to see the Indonesians agree to such a force. There are 20,000, roughly, Indonesian soldiers in Timor, and obviously, in the absence of such an agreement, it could be a rather bloody situation. JIM LEHRER: The Australian government appears to be putting some pressure on the U.S. government. The foreign minister of Australia, Mr. Downer said today. Let me quote what he said," I don't think a country with the depth of moral commitment and strength of liberal democratic traditions like the United States would want to turn its back on a people who are being slaughtered." SAMUEL BERGER: No. I agree with him. I don't know what he's referring to. The president has spoken at least two occasions with Prime Minister Howard of Australia. Those have been very good discussions. The president has said to Prime Minister Howard that he's very... admires the leadership that the Australians are taking and that, if there is such a force, we would support it. So I'm not quite sure what the foreign minister is referring to. JIM LEHRER: Jose Ramos-Horta, who's the East Timor independence activist who also won the Nobel Peace Prize, was on this program last night, and he said… he suggested very strongly that this isn't going to happen, an international peace force or an international... international action isn't going to happen without the leadership of the United States. Is he wrong? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, we're deeply engaged in this, Jim. We have been involved from this since the referendum, since the consultation on August 30. Trying at every level, Habibie, Wanto, ourselves, others to impress upon the Indonesians what is at stake. As your setup piece indicated, Indonesia itself is going through a democratic, hopefully democratic transition. It has held elections in the wake of the resignation of President Suharto. There's a... I think a hope that Indonesia can turn a corner to a new time of democracy. But it certainly can't do that in the context of the chaos that reins in East Timor.
	The U.S. interest in East Timor
	JIM LEHRER: What do you say to those who are asking the question, to be very straight about it: okay, the U.S. saw a national U.S. interest in the Kosovo situation and before that Bosnia and were willing to lead not only lead, but to send troops and do whatever. But do not see the same situation in East Timor? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I think we are engaged in East Timor. Obviously, every situation calls for different kinds of actions. I don't think anybody's suggesting that we bomb the city of Dili. But I think it's very important that the Asians here take the lead. There are great Asian sensitivities, and I think we have a great... we have a much greater chance at success here ultimately, success being both in East Timor and with the transition to democracy in Indonesia, if this is not westerners in the lead. That doesn't mean that we don't have a serious responsibility to be engaged. The president has been on the phone a good part of yesterday and today to leaders in the world to rally them and encourage them to put the maximum pressure on Indonesia. Today he cut off all military assistance. He made it clear that he would look at our economic programs very carefully. But I think in this situation, the best chance of success here is if the leadership here comes from Asia. JIM LEHRER: But thus far, nothing's working, is it, Mr. Berger? SAMUEL BERGER: I'm sorry? JIM LEHRER: Nothing's working thus far, is it? Everything is continuing, the chaos continues, the killing continues, the mass exodus continues. SAMUEL BERGER: Well, so far, there has not been stability or an end to the situation in East Timor. But I think that simply means we have to redouble our efforts, we have to get other countries to weigh in, we have to increase the pressure and perhaps the isolation of Indonesia, and press as hard as we can until they realize that the cost of trying to reverse the popular expression of independence in Timor comes at a very, very heavy price for the future of Indonesia. JIM LEHRER: Okay. Mr. Berger, thank you very much.