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| MARY ROBINSON | |
 October 7, 1999 
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U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson discusses the ongoing investigation into alleged human rights abuses in East Timor. |
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MARGARET WARNER: Last Friday, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan asked
the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, to investigate
reports of atrocities in East Timor. Robinson is to MARGARET WARNER: Welcome, Mrs. Robinson. MARY ROBINSON: Thank you. MARGARET WARNER: About a month ago, when you were in the region, you said that there was overwhelming evidence of what you called a deliberate, vicious, and systematic campaign of gross violations of human rights in East Timor. Do you still feel that way? |
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| Hearing the stories from the refugees | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARY ROBINSON: I found when I went to Darwin MARGARET WARNER: And what kinds of reports did you find most credible? I mean, what kinds of violence are we talking about? We've seen a lot in news reports, but I'm interested in your view of this. MARY ROBINSON: Violence of shooting, and shooting into the air first, then shooting into buildings, shooting at cars, shooting at cars which had U.N. personnel in them and might have -- I had civilian police saying the army were shooting at them as they fled the place and cross referencing - in fact, they weren't just saying a person in uniform. They were saying a named person because they knew them and this amounts to a very serious pattern of violence, which still needs to be investigated. We're still talking about serious allegations. And I think that's why an international commission of inquiry is the appropriate way to take that important step further.
MARY ROBINSON: At the moment I'm appointing distinguished, eminent individuals. Two of them will come from the region from Asia and the other three will come from other regions, and because I haven't yet been able to put the full five together I'm not disclosing who the names will be. They will carry out the investigation over the coming months together with a team of human rights officers and other expertise, military expertise, forensic expertise, and to ensure that the evidence is properly compiled. As well as that there, is another inquiry and an important one being carried out by the Indonesian National Human Rights Commission into the violence since the 30th of August when the ballot was held. And that is important because it's taking ownership of a very difficult problem, and I'm glad that the Indonesian National Human Rights Commission in Jakarta has asked me and our office for help. And I've made it clear that we'll give them technical advice and support. And we will have some coordination between the two inquiries. The international commission of inquiry goes back to last January, which I think is very important because there has been a lot of violence before the voting, and terrible violence since then. MARGARET WARNER: How concerned are you that your investigators weren't able to go in immediately with the Australian-led force, the way, for example, war crimes investigators in Kosovo went in immediately with the NATO-led force, so they were there right away to collect the evidence? |
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| The Indonesian Army at fault? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARY ROBINSON: Certainly the situation in Kosovo was different in that
there was an existing international criminal tribunal, so it is possible
for the investigators to be there immediately. I believe that there
are so many witnesses who can give firsthand accounts, refugees, MARGARET WARNER: You said you expect to get cooperation from this Indonesian Human Rights Commission. Do you also, though, need cooperation from Indonesian authorities? I'm talking about the military, the very same military I gather you're going to be investigating. MARY ROBINSON: Well, certainly the investigation will address violence by the militia and violence by T N I. MARGARET WARNER: The Indonesian army is the T N I. MARY ROBINSON: Indonesian army. That would require that there would
be cooperation. I was very glad to hear the chair of the Indonesian
National Human Rights Commission say very clearly yesterday that there
was a moral duty on Indonesia to cooperate with the International Commission
of Inquiry. Also we're going to see a transition to a U.N. presence and
U.N. management of the territory of East Timor very soon. We're all concerned
about the situation in West Timor and actively concerned about access
to refugees, to those who are displaced too in West Timor. Many of them
are in camps which are organized and run by militia. And it is of a
matter of great urgency that they would be able to return if there is
their wish to East Timor. I know that the refugees - the UNHCR are working
very much on that. MARGARET WARNER: But you are not involved in that? MARY ROBINSON: Not directly, no, but I think it would be possible for the Indonesian National Human Rights Commission, as part of its fact-finding inquiry, to go quickly to West Timor. They would have an access there. And I have certainly encouraged that because their presence as investigators of human rights violations could defer further violations against the people of East Timor. |
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| Kosovo war crimes | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: But let me draw another comparison with Kosovo. In Kosovo the international community in fact would like to see Milosevic's regime fall apart, so investigating the Yugoslav military there is no conflict. But in Indonesia, the international community, in fact, has a lot of interest in the stability of Indonesia and the military is a big part of that government still. Do you think that might complicate your task? MARY ROBINSON: I think what the Commission of Inquiry will inquire
into is activity by named individuals, and those individuals will be
accused of the serious |
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| Preventing conflicts | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: Finally briefly and it may be MARY ROBINSON: I think we must learn to prevent these conflicts. We must harness all the resources of early warning that we have. We've made a lot of progress. We have special reporters, we have committees, we have the work of my office, we have regional organizations. We can do better and we must in preventing because when a conflict takes place, the toll of human life is terrible. So I'm determined next century is the century of prevention of these terrible conflicts. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Mrs.Robinson, thank you for being with us. MARY ROBINSON: Thank you. |
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recommend
by December 31st, whether sufficient evidence exists to warrant an investigation
or rather a trial by an international War Crimes Tribunal. A lawyer
and former president of Ireland, Mrs. Robinson was among the first international
officials to call for such an inquiry after a visit to the region nearly
a month ago. And she joins us now.
and
listened to the stories of the refugees , the people of East Timor who
have fled there, the accounts of civilian police, of different nationalities
who had been working in East Timor from late June to prepare for the
ballot which the United Nations was organizing, the accounts by military
liaison officers who were also there, U.N. volunteers of different nationalities,
that they all pointed to violations by militia but also involvement
of army, of T N I, as they were called -- in fact the army orchestrating
the violence by the militia. That intensified at the time of registration
when the people of East Timor registered for the vote and it seemed
to be appreciated the a lot of them were going to vote, were going to
vote for independence so the violence became worse. Many pro-independence
Timorese fled, and then they came back and voted; 98 percent of them
courageously came and voted and then the violence really was unleashed
in a terrible way. And part of the orchestration, the systematic violence,
was to drive out the international eyes and ears, and that I found to
be very disturbing; a very deliberate campaign encircling Dili, getting
the international community to Dili, and then forcing them to retreat
to Darwin.
MARGARET
WARNER: Okay. So, how and when do you start your work on the ground?
victims
who suffered and those who saw and who are trained military and civilian
police, I believe that it's important to safeguard the physical evidence.
We have been advising on the appropriate ways to safeguard, where bodies
are found in a well, where charred remains are found in houses and in
other properties, where there is some evidence of bodies being taken
out to sea and what can be retained of that. There are various issues
that worry us -- weather, for example, can destroy some physical evidence.
But I think that what the Commission inquiry will be looking at is a
very large degree of first-hand accounts and it will be for the Commission
of Inquiry then to report to me and I will report to the Secretary-general,
as he has asked, before the end of December.
allegations
that were being made when I heard the reports in Darwin. How far up
the chain of command goes it's very difficult to say at this point,
but it certainly will be an issue that the Commission of Inquiry will
have to look at, and I also place a very high priority on the human
rights program which we have with Indonesia and indeed the progress
in a number of areas of human rights, the adoption of a plan of action
for human rights, the strengthening of the National Human Rights Commission,
which Indonesia has carried out quite recently. And when I was in Jakarta,
following my visit to Darwin, I had a discussion on this with President
Habibie. It is important for us to encourage the civil society, the
move to democracy, the wonderful idealism of young people in Indonesia.
I met some of them, some, you know, human rights activists. So it's
difficult and it will require a lot of balance and a firm approach on
addressing issues of violation, gross violation in the context of people
who for the first time were able to vote for independence and 98 percent
of them came out and voted. And you know, I think it's a wonderful turnout
of people determined to decide on their own future. And we must stand
by them and bring about justice for the terrible wrongs that have been
done to them.