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| AIMING FOR PEACE | |
 September 28, 1999 
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MARGARET WARNER: An update on East Timor. We start with a report from Julian Manyon of Independent Television News.
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| Accusations of militia murders | ||||||||||||||||||||
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FATHER MARTINO DE GUSMAO: They stopped the car and they killed one by one.
HORACIO DOS SANTOS: They bombed our house. They took everything in our house, and we hear information that they killed people everywhere in East Timor.
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| Killings continued into weekend | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: For more we are joined by, Andrew Peacock, Australia's Ambassador to Washington. Australia commands the international force in East Timor; Makarim Wibisono, Indonesia's Ambassador to the United Nations; and Jose Ramos-Horta, an East Timorese independence leader who won the 1996 Nobel Peace Prize. Welcome, gentlemen.
ANDREW PEACOCK: Well, the force has of course been in place just over a week. It's hard to say whether they'll be able to restore law and order immediately, other than in the areas where they're sent in. The short answer to your question is within four days of their arrival, there were still killings going on. And the aim of the force is precisely to address that problem, restore law and order, and give security and stability to East Timorese. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, what's your assessment of the progress made in East Timor, restoring order there? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Well, if we bear in mind that only a few weeks ago,
the whole country was ruled by militia gangs and with rogue elements
of the special forces of the militia army supporting them and compare
then with now, certainly there has been a dramatic improvement in overall
security situation. However, until the full deployment of the MARGARET WARNER: Perpetrated by whom? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: The main culprits are members of the Indonesian special forces branch and the army intelligence. The militias on their own certainly would not be able to operate in East Timor freely. And many of the militias, the so-called militias, are not natives of East Timor. Many of them are recruited among criminal gangs in Indonesian West Timor. Many come as far away as from Java. |
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| Military and militias? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Peacock, is that your information, that the violence that's still going on is a combination of not just the militias but certain parts of the Indonesian military?
MARGARET WARNER: I see. Ambassador Wibisono, how do you explain that the violence is continuing there?
MARGARET WARNER: Now, Kofi Annan said today -- the U.N. Secretary-General -- that he wants to very quickly have an international inquiry into alleged abuses or atrocities. The reports are that Indonesia voted against that when the U.N. Human Rights Commission voted the resolution on Sunday. Are you saying Indonesia will cooperate with an international U.N.-sponsored inquiry?
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| U.N. Human Rights Committee | ||||||||||||||||||||
| MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, does that
sound like a good arrangement to you?
MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, let's turn to the situation in West Timor where I gather some 200,000 East Timorese are now in refugee camps. What is the situation there? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: In spite of the visits already by some international
officials, the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Refugee Affairs,
humanitarian affairs, by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees,
the fact of the matter is that the humanitarian agencies do not have
access to the camps yet. There are already some offices being established
or to be established, but my view and that has been conveyed to the
U.N. and to the Indonesian side, is that people who were forcibly removed
from East Timor to West Timor should be able to return to East Timor
as quickly as possible. The conditions in the camps are appalling. Indonesian
army people ... maybe we can say yes, renegade elements ... but also
militia supported by these renegade elements and apparently very powerful
for them to operate with impunity in West Timor. They must be quite
powerful, these renegade elements. They are controlling the camps. People
are disappearing from the camps. They are taken away from the camps.
And we are very afraid. We are deeply disturbed by reports, including
MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let me get Ambassador Peacock in here on that. Is there anything the international force will or can do about this harassment and these problems in these camps? ANDREW PEACOCK: Well, we're extending the deployment of the troops out as widely as possible. The written mandate of the multinational force, which is led by Australia but comprised by a significant number of other countries, particularly from Asia, is to run within East Timor itself. We would agree with the statement of the Secretary of State made at the weekend that the pressure is on Indonesia in this situation; that the way in which they treat the East Timorese located in West Timor or anywhere else in Indonesia is as important as what they do within East Timor itself. So what we're doing is creating the environment for a return provided there is not the harassment and worse than that, in West Timor. And today, the foreign minister of Indonesia has allegedly said that he will be assuring that a great number are allowed to return to East Timor. |
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| West Timor refugees | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: But you see the international force's sort of purview ending at that border in terms of a security role.
MARGARET WARNER: All right. Ambassador Wibisono, the Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, yesterday, apparently in a meeting with your foreign minister in New York said to him that international loans to Indonesia would be choked off if Indonesia didn't do something to protect these refugees, get them home, reign in the militias. Do you take that warning seriously and what is Indonesia doing about it?
MARGARET WARNER: I hate to interrupt you. But I was particularly asking you about the situation in the refugee camps in West Timor and the warning Madeleine Albright gave your foreign minister yesterday. MAKARIM WIBISONO: With that report, I would like also to inform you
that Sadaka Ogata from UNHCR also visited that camp, and according to
the report that she made to my president, as well as some dignitaries
in Jakarta, that the situations in the camps were not too bad. They're
not bad. The refugees there ... internally displaced persons are in
very healthy conditions. They are not malnutritioned. They are, of course,
they need help. But the situation is not too bad. According to them,
they are working to help the situations. And in Indonesia, have various
positions towards this -- the internally displaced person -- because
we have three options offered to them. First, that they are encouraged,
you know, to return back to East Timor because according to the Indonesian
position this is best choice for them. But for instance, if they are
scared to return back, if they are scared that they don't have houses
to accommodate them, they are also offered to be residing in West Timor,
you know. But for instance, if they are not in MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, brief response from you on that. JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: If that were the case, then we should see within
the next few days, a week, an international mission comprising of the
International Committee of the Red Cross, the UNHCR, the High Commission
for Refugees, and other U.N. agencies immediately accessing the camps.
I'd interview the refugees, displaced persons, identify them one by
one to seek their opinion about where they want to reside, what is their
option, and then organize transportation back to East Timor for those
who want to return. What I want to hear then is a clear commitment and
deadline for the U.N. agencies to access them. The reality is that I
have not seen this report by Mrs. Ogata. But I have read reports by
the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Humanitarian Refugee Affairs
who also visited the camps. The report was deeply disturbing abou MARGARET WARNER: All right, Mr. Ramos-Horta, thank you very much. And, Ambassadors, thank you both. |
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JULIAN
MANYON: In East Timor's second city, they came to a special service
to mourn the dead from the latest Indonesian atrocity. The victims included
two nuns, three trainee priests and two female students. In the churchyard
in Bakow, relatives and members of the church community kissed their
photographs in scenes of desperate grief. (crying) The nine victims
were murdered by Indonesian troops or militiamen last Saturday while
delivering food and medical supplies to refugees. Their bodies were
dumped in a stream. Father Martino de Gusmao, a relative of one of the
dead, displayed some of the cartridge cases found at the scene. 
JULIAN
MANYON: Meanwhile, in Dili, thousands of refugees who were hiding in
the hills above the town have begun to return. Finally, people seem
to be convinced that it is safe to return to Dili. Ever since the early
hours of this morning, they have been streaming out of the hills, where
they have been hiding from the militia for the last few weeks. And the
question now is how will they manage when they get back home to find
that everything has been destroyed. One returning refugee is Horacio
Dos Santos, a former U.N. interpreter. He got back to find his home
and those of his relatives completely wrecked. 
JULIAN
MANYON: Tonight, people are huddled in the streets, some praying at
the statue of the Virgin Mary. Their houses may be wrecked, but at least
they are home. 
Mr.
Ambassador, from what we just saw in this taped piece, it's apparent
these killings went on even this weekend, even after the force had arrived.
Do killings continue today? 
INTERFAT,
the multinational force, into sensitive areas, particularly to the western
region and seal off the border region to avoid infiltration from the
other side, we still will have some disturbances and violence and killings
in the meantime. 
ANDREW
PEACOCK: Well, the degree of collusion with the Indonesian military
was evident to those who were watching scenes unfold in the last few
weeks. But there are now, as of today, only around about 1,200 Indonesian
military in place. So the multinational force has to concentrate on
the militia, as well as other areas of unrest in which some of the military
may still be involved. But the prime role of the Indonesian military
now seems to be to protect Indonesian military bases. 
MAKARIM
WIBISONO: First of all I would like to say, you know, that the events
should be seen in a perspective; first of all, the position of Indonesia
is deeply regretted to the event itself, that killed number of peoples
that are not allowed or agreeable by Indonesia. We would like to see
this kind of tragic event be avoided. However, we got a report already
from East Timor that the Indonesian military were withdrawn already
on Friday from Bakoa. From that information -- through the events --
incidents happen -- you know, without the presence of the Indonesian
military. However, we would like to see that this incident be investigated
thoroughly. We would like to see that all perpetrators to the violence
be put in justice. We would like to see that all people involved in
this violence be investigated. 
MAKARIM
WIBISONO: We put our position very clearly in Geneva, you know, because
Indonesia have a similar or identical objective. We would like to see
the people who are involved in violence will be put in justice. We don't
want to see impunity is allowed. We would like to see all these persons
involved in the killing be investigated. So there's an identical objective
among the idea of having international commission inquiry with the Indonesian
position that has been disclosed in Geneva. The Indonesian people's
position is very clear. We would like to see that fact-finding mission
set up and led by the National Commission of Human Rights, which are
very independent and then also composed of a reliable as well as the
respectable persons, be having a chance to investigate the case. And
then they are -- may be assisted by the international expert -- for
instance, experts on forensic, or experts on other expertise that are
needed to enable the fact-finding mission's works and find out the whole
pictures of the situation.
JOSE
RAMOS-HORTA: The U.N. Commission on Human Rights voted by considerable
majority, a clear-cut majority resolution calling on the Secretary-General
of the United Nations to establish an international commission of investigation
made up of experts, including a representation from Asian experts and
as well as the bodies of the United Nations, the Indonesian side has
announced that the Indonesian National Commission of Human Rights would
also initiate some investigation. I don't see -- and that was my position
when I was in Geneva. I don't see any conflict between the two initiatives,
one by the Commission of Human Rights led now by the secretary-general
to establish this commission -- and the other by the Indonesian representation
of the human rights. One cannot exclude the other. That's my position.
We are glad that the Indonesians -- they shape their own investigation.
But it should not exclude these more independent international investigations.
coming
from Indonesian minister -- that 90 percent of these refugees, displaced
persons, are there on their own will and they could be relocated to
even other remote islands. This is totally ... we totally oppose that.
These people should be interviewed by the UNHCR, ask them whether they
want to return and if they want to return, they should be taken back
to West - East Timor by international agencies.
ANDREW
PEACOCK: They do not have a writ to run within West Timor -- their writ
runs within East Timor itself. And there they're gradually establishing
the circumstances where humane policies can run out and where, in fact,
you can restore law and order effectively. 
MAKARIM
WIBISONO: First of all, you know, in this particular situation, Indonesia
is very aware that there is a lot of information and disinformation
happens right now. We were reported that there are some people killed.
For instance -- but in fact, they are all healthy. They are still alive.
We were reported that there are some people... 100 men or priests were
killed. But in fact, the Guardian and Washington Post
also made a report that the evidence of mass killing is not there. It
might be an exaggeration of the report. 
favor
of the situation in West Timor because the West Timor province is not
actually represented like the other part of Indonesia. So they are also
able to be relocated to the other part of Indonesia. But it should be
based upon their desire. There is no force return, or there are no forced
relocations for them, because this is the position of Indonesia toward
the internally displaced person. 
t
the conditions in the camps. And my information, coming from sources
in West Timor, including from very respected independent church sources,
they are deeply disturbed, appalled by the conditions in the camps,
by the way militias and army run the camps a bit like in Cambodia --
in the Thai-Cambodia border in the worst years of Khmer Rouge rule where
Khmer Rouge's soldiers ran the camps in the Thai-Cambodian border.
