AIMING FOR PEACE

September 28, 1999
		After a background report, Australia's ambassador to the U.S., Indonesia's ambassador to the United Nations and Nobel Peace Prize winner Jose Ramos-Horta discuss the arrival of international troops in East Timor and war crime allegations against Indonesia.

Online NewsHour Special Report: East Timor Independence Sept. 27, 1999: The Indonesian military hands over control of East Timor. Online Backgrounder: A look at East Timor's stormy history. Sept. 20, 1999: A background report on U.N. peacekeepers in East Timor. Sept. 15, 1999: A discussion with Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer. Sept. 14, 1999: An newsmaker interview with Madeleine Albright. Sept. 14, 1999: An interview with a journalist detained in East Timor. Sept. 13, 1999: Two United Nations representatives discuss the creation of an East Timor peacekeeping force. Sept. 13, 1999: Indonesian President B.J. Habibie says he will allow international forces into East Timor. Sept. 10, 1999: Three experts discuss the international reaction to the militia violence in East Timor. Sept. 9, 1999: Samuel Berger on the East Timor crisis. Sept. 8, 1999: An interview with 1996 Nobel Peace Prize winner Jose Ramos-Horta. Sept. 7, 1999: Two experts discuss the militia activities in East Timor and how Indonesia and the U.N. can end them. Sept. 7, 1999: Indonesia institutes martial law in East Timor. Sept. 6, 1999: The Carter Center's lead vote monitor discusses the post-election violence. Sept. 3, 1999: East Timor chooses independence. Sept. 2, 1999: U.N. workers are killed as militia attacks continue. Sept. 1, 1999: Militias lead an uprising outside the U.N. compound. Oct. 25, 1996: Online Forum: Nobel Peace Prize winner Jose Ramos-Horta responds to viewer questions. July 8, 1999: A discussion on Indonesia's election process. Nov. 13, 1996: A discussion with Jose Ramos-Horta. Oct. 11, 1996: Two East Timorese dissidents win the Nobel Peace Prize. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Asia.     United Nations Mission in East Timor Indonesian Embassy in Washington National Council of Timorese Resistance U.S. Embassy in Jakarta Carter Center	MARGARET WARNER: An update on East Timor. We start with a report from Julian Manyon of Independent Television News. JULIAN MANYON: In East Timor's second city, they came to a special service to mourn the dead from the latest Indonesian atrocity. The victims included two nuns, three trainee priests and two female students. In the churchyard in Bakow, relatives and members of the church community kissed their photographs in scenes of desperate grief. (crying) The nine victims were murdered by Indonesian troops or militiamen last Saturday while delivering food and medical supplies to refugees. Their bodies were dumped in a stream. Father Martino de Gusmao, a relative of one of the dead, displayed some of the cartridge cases found at the scene.
	Accusations of militia murders
	FATHER MARTINO DE GUSMAO: They stopped the car and they killed one by one. JULIAN MANYON: Meanwhile, in Dili, thousands of refugees who were hiding in the hills above the town have begun to return. Finally, people seem to be convinced that it is safe to return to Dili. Ever since the early hours of this morning, they have been streaming out of the hills, where they have been hiding from the militia for the last few weeks. And the question now is how will they manage when they get back home to find that everything has been destroyed. One returning refugee is Horacio Dos Santos, a former U.N. interpreter. He got back to find his home and those of his relatives completely wrecked. HORACIO DOS SANTOS: They bombed our house. They took everything in our house, and we hear information that they killed people everywhere in East Timor. JULIAN MANYON: Tonight, people are huddled in the streets, some praying at the statue of the Virgin Mary. Their houses may be wrecked, but at least they are home.
	Killings continued into weekend
	MARGARET WARNER: For more we are joined by, Andrew Peacock, Australia's Ambassador to Washington. Australia commands the international force in East Timor; Makarim Wibisono, Indonesia's Ambassador to the United Nations; and Jose Ramos-Horta, an East Timorese independence leader who won the 1996 Nobel Peace Prize. Welcome, gentlemen. Mr. Ambassador, from what we just saw in this taped piece, it's apparent these killings went on even this weekend, even after the force had arrived. Do killings continue today? ANDREW PEACOCK: Well, the force has of course been in place just over a week. It's hard to say whether they'll be able to restore law and order immediately, other than in the areas where they're sent in. The short answer to your question is within four days of their arrival, there were still killings going on. And the aim of the force is precisely to address that problem, restore law and order, and give security and stability to East Timorese. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, what's your assessment of the progress made in East Timor, restoring order there? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: Well, if we bear in mind that only a few weeks ago, the whole country was ruled by militia gangs and with rogue elements of the special forces of the militia army supporting them and compare then with now, certainly there has been a dramatic improvement in overall security situation. However, until the full deployment of the INTERFAT, the multinational force, into sensitive areas, particularly to the western region and seal off the border region to avoid infiltration from the other side, we still will have some disturbances and violence and killings in the meantime. MARGARET WARNER: Perpetrated by whom? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: The main culprits are members of the Indonesian special forces branch and the army intelligence. The militias on their own certainly would not be able to operate in East Timor freely. And many of the militias, the so-called militias, are not natives of East Timor. Many of them are recruited among criminal gangs in Indonesian West Timor. Many come as far away as from Java.
	Military and militias?
	MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Peacock, is that your information, that the violence that's still going on is a combination of not just the militias but certain parts of the Indonesian military? ANDREW PEACOCK: Well, the degree of collusion with the Indonesian military was evident to those who were watching scenes unfold in the last few weeks. But there are now, as of today, only around about 1,200 Indonesian military in place. So the multinational force has to concentrate on the militia, as well as other areas of unrest in which some of the military may still be involved. But the prime role of the Indonesian military now seems to be to protect Indonesian military bases. MARGARET WARNER: I see. Ambassador Wibisono, how do you explain that the violence is continuing there? MAKARIM WIBISONO: First of all I would like to say, you know, that the events should be seen in a perspective; first of all, the position of Indonesia is deeply regretted to the event itself, that killed number of peoples that are not allowed or agreeable by Indonesia. We would like to see this kind of tragic event be avoided. However, we got a report already from East Timor that the Indonesian military were withdrawn already on Friday from Bakoa. From that information -- through the events -- incidents happen -- you know, without the presence of the Indonesian military. However, we would like to see that this incident be investigated thoroughly. We would like to see that all perpetrators to the violence be put in justice. We would like to see that all people involved in this violence be investigated. MARGARET WARNER: Now, Kofi Annan said today -- the U.N. Secretary-General -- that he wants to very quickly have an international inquiry into alleged abuses or atrocities. The reports are that Indonesia voted against that when the U.N. Human Rights Commission voted the resolution on Sunday. Are you saying Indonesia will cooperate with an international U.N.-sponsored inquiry? MAKARIM WIBISONO: We put our position very clearly in Geneva, you know, because Indonesia have a similar or identical objective. We would like to see the people who are involved in violence will be put in justice. We don't want to see impunity is allowed. We would like to see all these persons involved in the killing be investigated. So there's an identical objective among the idea of having international commission inquiry with the Indonesian position that has been disclosed in Geneva. The Indonesian people's position is very clear. We would like to see that fact-finding mission set up and led by the National Commission of Human Rights, which are very independent and then also composed of a reliable as well as the respectable persons, be having a chance to investigate the case. And then they are -- may be assisted by the international expert -- for instance, experts on forensic, or experts on other expertise that are needed to enable the fact-finding mission's works and find out the whole pictures of the situation.
	U.N. Human Rights Committee
	MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, does that sound like a good arrangement to you? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: The U.N. Commission on Human Rights voted by considerable majority, a clear-cut majority resolution calling on the Secretary-General of the United Nations to establish an international commission of investigation made up of experts, including a representation from Asian experts and as well as the bodies of the United Nations, the Indonesian side has announced that the Indonesian National Commission of Human Rights would also initiate some investigation. I don't see -- and that was my position when I was in Geneva. I don't see any conflict between the two initiatives, one by the Commission of Human Rights led now by the secretary-general to establish this commission -- and the other by the Indonesian representation of the human rights. One cannot exclude the other. That's my position. We are glad that the Indonesians -- they shape their own investigation. But it should not exclude these more independent international investigations. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, let's turn to the situation in West Timor where I gather some 200,000 East Timorese are now in refugee camps. What is the situation there? JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: In spite of the visits already by some international officials, the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Refugee Affairs, humanitarian affairs, by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, the fact of the matter is that the humanitarian agencies do not have access to the camps yet. There are already some offices being established or to be established, but my view and that has been conveyed to the U.N. and to the Indonesian side, is that people who were forcibly removed from East Timor to West Timor should be able to return to East Timor as quickly as possible. The conditions in the camps are appalling. Indonesian army people ... maybe we can say yes, renegade elements ... but also militia supported by these renegade elements and apparently very powerful for them to operate with impunity in West Timor. They must be quite powerful, these renegade elements. They are controlling the camps. People are disappearing from the camps. They are taken away from the camps. And we are very afraid. We are deeply disturbed by reports, including coming from Indonesian minister -- that 90 percent of these refugees, displaced persons, are there on their own will and they could be relocated to even other remote islands. This is totally ... we totally oppose that. These people should be interviewed by the UNHCR, ask them whether they want to return and if they want to return, they should be taken back to West - East Timor by international agencies. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let me get Ambassador Peacock in here on that. Is there anything the international force will or can do about this harassment and these problems in these camps? ANDREW PEACOCK: Well, we're extending the deployment of the troops out as widely as possible. The written mandate of the multinational force, which is led by Australia but comprised by a significant number of other countries, particularly from Asia, is to run within East Timor itself. We would agree with the statement of the Secretary of State made at the weekend that the pressure is on Indonesia in this situation; that the way in which they treat the East Timorese located in West Timor or anywhere else in Indonesia is as important as what they do within East Timor itself. So what we're doing is creating the environment for a return provided there is not the harassment and worse than that, in West Timor. And today, the foreign minister of Indonesia has allegedly said that he will be assuring that a great number are allowed to return to East Timor.
	West Timor refugees
	MARGARET WARNER: But you see the international force's sort of purview ending at that border in terms of a security role. ANDREW PEACOCK: They do not have a writ to run within West Timor -- their writ runs within East Timor itself. And there they're gradually establishing the circumstances where humane policies can run out and where, in fact, you can restore law and order effectively. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Ambassador Wibisono, the Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, yesterday, apparently in a meeting with your foreign minister in New York said to him that international loans to Indonesia would be choked off if Indonesia didn't do something to protect these refugees, get them home, reign in the militias. Do you take that warning seriously and what is Indonesia doing about it? MAKARIM WIBISONO: First of all, you know, in this particular situation, Indonesia is very aware that there is a lot of information and disinformation happens right now. We were reported that there are some people killed. For instance -- but in fact, they are all healthy. They are still alive. We were reported that there are some people... 100 men or priests were killed. But in fact, the Guardian and Washington Post also made a report that the evidence of mass killing is not there. It might be an exaggeration of the report. MARGARET WARNER: I hate to interrupt you. But I was particularly asking you about the situation in the refugee camps in West Timor and the warning Madeleine Albright gave your foreign minister yesterday. MAKARIM WIBISONO: With that report, I would like also to inform you that Sadaka Ogata from UNHCR also visited that camp, and according to the report that she made to my president, as well as some dignitaries in Jakarta, that the situations in the camps were not too bad. They're not bad. The refugees there ... internally displaced persons are in very healthy conditions. They are not malnutritioned. They are, of course, they need help. But the situation is not too bad. According to them, they are working to help the situations. And in Indonesia, have various positions towards this -- the internally displaced person -- because we have three options offered to them. First, that they are encouraged, you know, to return back to East Timor because according to the Indonesian position this is best choice for them. But for instance, if they are scared to return back, if they are scared that they don't have houses to accommodate them, they are also offered to be residing in West Timor, you know. But for instance, if they are not in favor of the situation in West Timor because the West Timor province is not actually represented like the other part of Indonesia. So they are also able to be relocated to the other part of Indonesia. But it should be based upon their desire. There is no force return, or there are no forced relocations for them, because this is the position of Indonesia toward the internally displaced person. MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ramos-Horta, brief response from you on that. JOSE RAMOS-HORTA: If that were the case, then we should see within the next few days, a week, an international mission comprising of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the UNHCR, the High Commission for Refugees, and other U.N. agencies immediately accessing the camps. I'd interview the refugees, displaced persons, identify them one by one to seek their opinion about where they want to reside, what is their option, and then organize transportation back to East Timor for those who want to return. What I want to hear then is a clear commitment and deadline for the U.N. agencies to access them. The reality is that I have not seen this report by Mrs. Ogata. But I have read reports by the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Humanitarian Refugee Affairs who also visited the camps. The report was deeply disturbing about the conditions in the camps. And my information, coming from sources in West Timor, including from very respected independent church sources, they are deeply disturbed, appalled by the conditions in the camps, by the way militias and army run the camps a bit like in Cambodia -- in the Thai-Cambodia border in the worst years of Khmer Rouge rule where Khmer Rouge's soldiers ran the camps in the Thai-Cambodian border. MARGARET WARNER: All right, Mr. Ramos-Horta, thank you very much. And, Ambassadors, thank you both.