QUELLING THE VIOLENCE

September 7, 1999
		Ambassadors to the United Nations from Indonesia and Portugal discuss the violence in East Timor -- and how it can be brought to an end. A background report from Independent Television News begins the coverage.

Online NewsHour Special Report: East Timor Independence Online Backgrounder: A look at East Timor's stormy history. Sept. 3, 1999: East Timor chooses independence. Sept. 2, 1999: U.N. workers are killed as militia attacks continue. Sept.1, 1999: Militias lead an uprising outside the U.N. compound. Oct. 25, 1996: Online Forum: Nobel Peace Prize winner Jose Ramos-Horta responds to viewer questions. June 2, 1998: Indonesia attempts to form a democratic government. May 22, 1998: A discussion on changes in the Indonesian government. May 21, 1998: Indonesia in the wake of Suharto's resignation. May 20, 1998: Should Suharto resign? May 19, 1998: Suharto announces plans to step down. May 15, 1998: A report on the riots in Jakarta. May 14, 1998: Students protest against Suharto. Nov. 13, 1996: A discussion with Jose Ramos-Horta. Oct. 11, 1996: Two East Timorese dissidents win the Nobel Peace Prize. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Asia.     United Nations Mission in East Timor Indonesian Embassy in Washington National Council of Timorese Resistance U.S. Embassy in Jakarta Carter Center	TOM BRADBY, Independent Television News: Today radical students took to the streets of the Indonesian capital. They were protesting against their own army and the reign of terror it has unleashed in East Timor. East Timor is four hours flying time from here, but the shock waves are already being felt. Earlier the Indonesians released the East Timorese resistance leader, Xanana Gusmao, after seven years in captivity, but he said it wasn't yet safe to return home. Mr. Gusmao is now being sheltered in the British embassy.
	Appeals for help
	XANANA GUSMAO, East Timor Resistance Leader: I appeal to the international community to help these heroic, these brave, but so defenseless people, help to stop the violence, to stop the killings help to save lives. TOM BRADBY: The situation in East Timor itself appears to be getting steadily worse. Those that are still alive fleeing all directions -- these West Timor which doesn't want independence. Politics here in Djakarta though remain as unreal as ever, the military which lies behind the violence saying today that imposing martial law to try and stop it. The Indonesians did send in their special forces today, and that may mark a sea change, but the Australians, who lead a peacekeeping force, gave them only 48 hours to stop the violence. It's not clear what happens then.
	A tense situation
	MARGARET WARNER: Joining us to discuss the situation are: Indonesia's Ambassador to the United Nations, Makarim Wibisono and Portugal's ambassador to the United Nations, Antonio Monteiro. East Timor was a colony of Portugal until 1975, when Indonesia annexed it. Indonesia and Portugal jointly asked the United Nations to organize the August 30th referendum on East Timor's future. Welcome, gentlemen. Ambassador Wibisono, why has your government been unable to stop the violence in East Timor? MAKARIM WIBISONO, U.N. Ambassador, Indonesia: If I may say frankly that my government committed to be responsible for the security situations, but the situation in East Timor right now is very tense because the pro-autonomy groups are disappointed with the result of the popular consultations there. He dare complain about some irregularities there. They're complaining about the possibility of killing of the pro-autonomies in the grounds there so they are in panic, the situation. And you, as you are aware, the situation in East Timor is a situation of a territory who has experience, a long tradition, of conflict even before they integrated to the Republic of Indonesia in 1976. So, therefore, the situation is very tense. We have been taking serious measure. Last night President Habibie issued military emergencies there -- with this, empower the commander in chief to good resources, to get also opportunity to take care of the situation directly and the responsibility of public security and order in East Timor is no longer in the hand of the police but right away under the hand of the military. So we expect that the situation will be under control as soon as possible.
	Establishing peace and safety
	MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Monteiro, what is your reading of the situation there and why do you think the violence continues as all reports today say it does? ANTONIO MONTEIRO, U.N. Ambassador, Portugal: My evaluation of the situation is that the situation is bad. I don't say it's tragic because, after a legitimate fault recognized by everyone by the United Nations in the formal session of Security Council nobody contested what the secretary-general declared that night. I think that violence erupted only because the Indonesians, military authorities, in East Timor were incapable of doing their job or unwilling to do so. They should have halted the situation. They were responsible under the agreements and they were incapable of doing it, and we have even evidence that a certain complicity with the militias was on the ground, and this was terrible. MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Wibisono, Jamie Rubin, the State Department spokesman, made a similar charge today that the Indonesian military is involved with these militias in perpetrating some of the violence. Do you believe that to be the case? MAKARIM WIBISONO: No. I don't believe that to be the case. First of all if it is to be the case, you know, the process of socialization of popular consultation, the process of registration for popular consultation, the process of campaigning for popular consultation; the process of popular consultation, itself, on the 30th of August will not be successfully conducted. The turnout will be very low because the militia is impeding the people to participate in the popular consultation. So I believe that this situation caused by the disappointment of the pro-autonomy with the result itself. So it is the position of the government of Indonesia to respect the result of the popular consultation. We would like to see the result of the popular consultation be implemented on the ground. Therefore we appeal to the international community since we've considered that we have not taken exhaustively all necessary measures in East Timor. Give us a chance, give us time so because we strongly committed to see that the popular consultation result be implemented on the ground. MARGARET WARNER: By popular consultation you mean the vote on August 30th. Are you saying, then, that the Indonesian military forces in East Timor are powerless to stop this? You are saying they are not complicit at all; they're not involved at all; that they are just unable to stop this violence so far? MAKARIM WIBISONO: What I see is the new military emergency is helping a lot the situation there. I would like to share with you the situation in the past. In the past, the military has been assigned there to take security in the framework of integration. So, therefore, the military at the time have been working closely due to all elements of pro-autonomy.
	Reinforcements arriving
	MARGARET WARNER: So, in other words, let me just interrupt to make sure I understand - what you are saying is the Indonesian military has a long relationship with these militias who are now perpetrating the violence? MAKARIM WIBISONO: In the past, yes, but right now the government after the President Habibie came to power, they have a new policy on East Timor and they right now also supported -- the policy of President Habibie is also supported by the military leadership in Indonesia. The problem is how to implement the instruction on the ground. By the military emergencies, it is empowering the command in chief to do something there. I got information that right now the structure of command is changed remarkably. There will be enforcement in the ground. Six battalions are coming; two battalions from Sulawesi -- battalion who has never been exposed to the question of East Timor at all. So we expect that this enforcement will be coming with a fresh blood and fresh mind to implement the policy if the government on the ground. MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Monteiro, what is your view of who is in charge there in terms of the military? Do you think this just the militias acting on their own? No. You said you think the Indonesian military is involved. Do you think it's regional commanders there acting on their own or do you think the military leadership in Jakarta is also is implicated? ANTONIO MONTEIRO: We believe that somewhere in the chain of command there is a break to say the least. It's obvious in the evidence -- it's clear in the ground, nothing was done to protect the people of East Timor, and what even the measure that my colleague now is talking about taken by the government of Indonesia, if it was solved it should have been taken one week or ten days before long ago because by now what we have is a country now totally destroyed and we are now following a policy of displaced people that is very, very worrying and we are totally concerned and I express and I appeal to my Indonesian colleague to call to the attention of Jakarta that this policy of displacing people and of counter depth where there is no witness now because everyone in East Timor, every foreigner including UNAMET, are now confined.
	International intervention?
	MARGARET WARNER: UNAMET met being the U.N. mission there, non-militia mission. ANTONIO MONTEIRO: There is no freedom of movement. Nobody knows exactly what is going on. MARGARET WARNER: So, Mr. Ambassador, you heard your colleague from Indonesia ask that the international community give Indonesia more time. You've called for a U.N. force. How long do you think the Indonesian government should be given to try to get a handle on this situation? ANTONIO MONTEIRO: I think that the Indonesian government asked several times for time and give several times assurances and I believe that the international community including Portugal will always trust President Habibie appeals on the government. Now we are in a different situation. After what happened in the last days, I think that we would like very much to have the cooperation of Indonesia and on helping the situation in East Timor. In other words we would like very much to see Indonesia ask and support the intervention of the international community to help to secure the situation in East Timor and to protect lives there. MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Makarim Wibisono, if let's say in the next 48 hours, which is the deadline or time frame that Kofi Annan, the secretary-general has suggested, if you were unable to restore order in East Timor, would Indonesia agree to have a U.N. military force come in and do the job? MAKARIM WIBISONO: It is a political question because we are fearful that the situation on the ground will be under control. However I would like to assure you that Indonesian position is always very cooperative with the international community, with the United Nations and under international community and we also always are ready to talk and discuss with the new development and the grounds. MARGARET WARNER: But I mean, for instance, let's say if tomorrow you came to work and you learned that someone on the security council had proposed sending a U.N. force, what are your instructions? How would you respond?
	Martial law, for now
	MAKARIM WIBISONO: What I respond is last night we issued a martial law and martial law empowered the commander-in-chief to do something, to take care of the issue in East Timor, so I have a strong belief that it is going to bring about some positive impact in the ground. So if it is the case, what for you ask for the international community to send peacekeeping operations there? MARGARET WARNER: All right. But if it doesn't, are you ruling out the possibility of a U.N. military force? MAKARIM WIBISONO: No, if it doesn't, it is the past practice of the Indonesian position, we always cooperate with the United Nations. We would like to talk. We would like to review the situations together and let's discuss together. I cannot prejudge the situations before it happens. MARGARET WARNER: Ambassador Monteiro, do you see some opening there? ANTONIO MONTEIRO: Yes, I see in a certain way if my colleague and the Indonesian government they repeat that they want to cooperate with the international community and sit with the council, I see some opening. But that means two or three things. First of all an improvement of the situation in East Timor needs to be verified and is not. Now there are no witnesses as I said. UNAMET is confined. Nobody is there. And another thing, what is improvements of situation? People are being dislodged. We have displaced people everywhere. We have the bishop now that is a Nobel Prize in Darwin in Australia -- we have destruction, we have the nuns are out of their convents. There is no schools, there are no hospitals. What will be the improvements? Improvement how? Will people taking into concentration camps or what kind of improvement will we have? We have been now under martial law for a short period; we want very much Indonesian - the explanation that it is for the good, for the welfare of the East Timorese, we hope that it is so but it is an exceptional state of emergency. It is always dangerous. It can be used against individuals, against human rights. Again we need all this to be verified. Again we appeal the Indonesian authority to allow immediately UNAMET to be able to go back to everyone and all the certain districts of East Timor because by now all UNAMET personnel is concentrated in Dili in the destroyed capital. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let me get Ambassador Wibisono to respond before we have to end this. Ambassador Wibisono, would you, I mean, what is your definition of order being restored? You heard the Portuguese ambassador saying a continuation of martial law where nobody from the international community can get in and see what is happening. That is not acceptable. What are you talking about when you say you think you can restore order and end the violence? MAKARIM WIBISONO: I would like to address this one. The resolution of 262, is the latest resolution of the Security Council -- that we committed to see that the presence of the civilian police there be expanded as well as the military officers in East Timor is to be expanded accordingly. So we committed to see that the expansion of the United Nations mission in East Timor is in East Timor be put accordingly. Mr. Antonio Monteiro highlighted the issue of displaced person. This is the character of East Timorese people -- if there was chaos or panic situations there. In 1975 we have also the same internal displaced persons which is more than 25,000 people went to ... MARGARET WARNER: Mr. Ambassador I'm sorry to interrupt you but we have to leave it there. We'll return to this I'm sure. Thank you both very much.