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| COURTING INFLUENCE
MARCH 13, 1997TRANSCRIPT |
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Did China try to buy influence during the 1996 elections by making illegal contributions to Congressional and Presidential campaigns? Kwame Holman has a background report followed by two members of Congress discussing FBI warnings and related issues with Jim Lehrer.
KWAME HOLMAN: In a front page story on February 13th, the "Washington Post" reported the Chinese government tried to influence the presidential election last November.
A RealAudio version of this segment is available.
March 11, 1997:
Margaret Warner discusses the Senate's investigation of campaign financing with Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) and Sen.Thad Cochran (R-MS).
March 11, 1997:
Kwame Holman's background report on the Senate investigation into campaign fund-raising.
March 6, 1997:
Two former White House lawyers discuss the legality of Vice President Gore's fund-raising.
March 4, 1997:
Presidential historian, Haynes Johnson and William Kristol, editor and publisher of The Weekly Standard discuss money and politics.
March 3, 1997:
Vice President Gore said he did nothing illegal or wrong when he solicited funds for the 1996 campaign.
February 27, 1997:
Jim Lehrer leads a discussion about the White House's campaign financing tactics .
February 25, 1997:
Elizabeth Farnsworth discusses the growing DNC fund raising scandal with White House Special Counsel Lanny Davis.
November 18, 1996:
House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt (D-MO) discusses campaign finance reform and his party's role in the 105th Congress.
October 25, 1996:
Mark Shields and Paul Gigot discuss the role of money in this election year.
October 24, 1996:
Ross Perot blasts what he sees as President Clinton's corruption.
October 21, 1996:
A panel debates campaign finance reform, allegations of illegal foreign contributions, and egregious use of lots of "soft money".
For more coverage about China, browse the Online NewsHour's Asia page.
For more information about the 1996 election financing, browse the Online NewsHour's White House page.
Browse the Online NewsHour's Congressional coverage.
The story said the Justice Department had uncovered evidence that representatives of China sought to direct contributions from foreign sources to the Democratic National Committee before the 1996 presidential campaign. According to the story, federal agencies used electronic eavesdropping to obtain some of their information. Chinese embassy officials in Washington promptly denied their government was involved in anything improper.
At the end of February, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was in Beijing on an official visit. She said she raised the Clinton administration's concern about possible Chinese involvement in the American political process. Then on February 28th, the "Washington Post" reported the FBI was investigating possible Chinese involvement in congressional elections, and last Sunday the Post reported the FBI had warned six members of Congress they had been targeted by China to receive illegal campaign contributions.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN: I'm happy to answer any questions--
KWAME HOLMAN: One of the members, Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, described the briefing she received from the FBI.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN: The substance of it was that there were some credible sources that presented the FBI with the view that the Chinese may try and funnel contributions to various candidates. That was it.
KWAME HOLMAN: On Monday, the story took another turn and provoked an unusual public dispute between the White House and the FBI. The FBI said it had warned two staff members of President Clinton's National Security Council about a possible Chinese attempt to influence the 1996 election. President Clinton complained publicly that he had not been informed of the FBI warning.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I absolutely did not know it was done.
KWAME HOLMAN: Today Attorney General Janet Reno repeated her assertion that the failure to notify the President resulted from a misunderstanding between the FBI agents and the Security Council aides.
JANET RENO, Attorney General: I think again what has happened is--and that people misunderstood, and I think we can work it out.
KWAME HOLMAN: Reno also said she has known about the allegations of Chinese contributions since last May. The Chinese issue has added further fuel to congressional demand for an independent counsel to investigate funding of last year's campaign, and in Congress, itself, the House Intelligence Committee has taken the lead in investigating the China connection.
JIM LEHRER: And now more on the China story from two members of the House Intelligence Committee. The chairman, Republican Porter Goss of Florida, and Democrat Nancy Pelosi of California, one of those six members of Congress warned last year by the FBI they were being
targeted by the Chinese government. Joining them is Kenneth Lieberthal, a China scholar and professor of political science at the University of Michigan. Congressman Goss, first of all, what exactly is known about what the Chinese did?
REP. PORTER GOSS, Chairman, House Intelligence Committee: I can't get into details at this point. We are having an investigation. I can tell you that I have been briefed, and I believe the investigation is justified at this point. When you get to the subject of trying to have foreign governments influencing our domestic elections in this
country, you clearly have something that raises concern. We're also looking at other areas of improper access to classified information, a violence of clearance procedures, those types of things, which are relative to protecting the bona fide secrets of our country.
JIM LEHRER: Is there any doubt, based on what you know--and I know you're not going to tell us what you know--but is there any doubt in your mind that there was a definite attempt by the Chinese government to influence the government actions of this country?
REP. PORTER GOSS: I'd rather wait till we have our report, in which case we will share that information publicly with everybody.
JIM LEHRER: Congressman Pelosi, do you know of anything that the Chinese government did specifically that can be talked about at this point?
REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D) California:
Well, the information that I would have is not information that I obtained at the Intelligence Committee level. Our chairman has access to more information than I do as just a member and not a chairman or ranking member, but what I can say is what the FBI told me.
They said that they'd like to know if I had received any unusual overtures from the Chinese government or those who might serve as intermediaries from the Chinese government; that they said they thought the Chinese government might be putting money into campaigns in the U.S.; that the Ministry of State Security of China, their intelligence agency was aware of and supported that initiative, and they also told me that there would be an attempt on the part of the Chinese to encourage many more members to come to China under the auspices of the Chinese government or their intermediaries so that they could talk to them about U.S.-China policy from their perspective.
JIM LEHRER: Now, once that warning was received, did any of it happen, as far as you know, in terms of you specifically?
REP. NANCY PELOSI: Well, let me say this. First of all, it was not my first briefing by the FBI about possible Chinese involvement in U.S. elections. At the end of '91, beginning of '92, I was briefed by the FBI that there was the same thing, an attempt on the part of the Chinese to influence U.S. elections through intermediaries. In public hearing with the Attorney General Barr at the time I said that I had information from inside the Justice Department to that effect. He said, "Well, get your information together, I don't know anything about it."
I said, "No, I don't have the information. Your agency, your department has the information, and if this is as illegal as we know it is, then I believe that action should be taken on it."
I privately then told them that the information I had was from the FBI and that I had anticipated that there would be some action taken since he now knew the source was in his own agency, and he was just sort of brushed aside. So this--this issue goes back at least six years, and I don't think a member of Congress would know if an overture was made, an intermediary had made a contribution, his source was the Chinese government. I don't know of any facts that those contributions were made.
JIM LEHRER: Congressman Goss, there are probably very few countries that aren't trying in some way to influence either the executive branch or the Congress of the United States. What makes this case different, do you think?
REP. PORTER GOSS: I think if you have evidence of a concerted effort to exercise undue influence without the members knowing it, you're getting into an area that is somewhat dangerous. And I think that, as Ms. Pelosi just said, that some of the members who have been targeted, if that were the case, would not necessarily have known it.
I think if some of our agencies that are out there that are charged with the responsibility of
protecting the national interest feel that there are people trying to exercise influence either directly or indirectly on the decision makers of this country for whatever reason and whatever method, whether it is in exchange for some kind of a favor or whether or not the money changes hands, or whether or not the campaign finance chest is used, those are things we need to know. There is a line there where you cross from just improper and inappropriate into illegal and against the law. And right now it is against the law for foreign governments to try and influence elections of this country, and it should be against the law.
JIM LEHRER: But it's perfectly legal for the government of China or any other government to hire say a former member of Congress who is a lobbyist to come and lobby you on their behalf, is it not?
REP. PORTER GOSS: It is, and they are identified as such and registered as such. I think it's very important to make the distinction we're not just talking about the Lincoln Bedroom here. This is not just politics anymore. We're talking about a concerted effort, national security, to find out things and to know things and to make things happen in a clandestine way without telling us, without accreditation to who's doing this or why.
Those are the kinds of things we need to investigate and see if there is a concerted effort, if so, how far widespread it is, what other governments are doing it. If, as you suggest, many governments are doing this in a hidden way, that is something we clearly should know about and perhaps pass some additional legislation or have further enforcement about.
JIM LEHRER: Prof. Lieberthal, based on what you know about this, first of all, what would be the Chinese reason for doing what they may or have alleged to have done?
KENNETH LIEBERTHAL, University of Michigan: Generally speaking, China is really very interested in improving its relationship with the United States. It's seeing 1997 as an important year in that effort with Vice President Gore's visit coming up later this month and then potentially a summit with President Clinton this fall. And so I think they have seen the debate in the United States as being, in their view, anti-Chinese, not fully taking account of the realities of China, the complexities of that society, the problems society faces.
And so clearly they've wanted to make the debate in the United States better informed from their perspective about the issues they face, what their interests are, and what they would like to see happen with the United States. So as long as they pursue that through legal means, lobbyists, PR firms, inviting members of Congress to China to see for themselves, that's obviously something that most governments do and that is very much warranted.
JIM LEHRER: And you agree that most governments do that. The distinction here, if it turns out, is the illegal part, which is to do is surreptitiously and offer money and Congressman Goss is suggesting even possibly infiltrating in some way our national security apparatus.
KENNETH LIEBERTHAL: Well, clearly, if we're talking about an intelligence effort to acquire classified information from the United States, that's something that we have a counter-intelligence apparatus that should be very vigilant about with China and with everyone else. That's a persistent problem with the U.S. bases, and we obviously want to deal with that as rigorously as we possibly can. I'm not sure whether China has actually funneled money illegally into American campaigns.
I've followed these accusations closely, and there is a kind of abstract quality to them to this point. Obviously, I don't have access to the kinds of information that Congressman Goss has at his command. If they have, that's going to cause a lot of trouble. If they have not, then I think that the other kinds of activities, more public lobbying and inviting congress people and that kind of thing, is the kind of thing we expect from any country.
JIM LEHRER: And to the Chinese feel picked upon at this point over this investigation and all the headlines?
KENNETH LIEBERTHAL: I think the Chinese always look for evidence to see whether the United
KENNETH LIEBERTHAL: Well, I think we never want to assume that the Chinese have a good understanding of how our political system works. Ours is a very transparent system. We have a huge amount of information available. That's the problem. We have more information available than they really know what to do with. So they don't know what's important and what is in them. Frankly, I don't think they have a good grasp of our law. It seems feasible to me--let me stress I do not know what actually happened.
JIM LEHRER: Sure.
KENNETH LIEBERTHAL: But it seems feasible to me, for example, that the Chinese wanted to do a better job with Congress and do a better job with the White House, especially after Taiwan President Li Deng Hua's visit to the United States, which really upset them; that they were willing to devote some money to that effort; that they got in touch with Chinese-Americans here or other political operatives here and said, how is the game played, how do we do this, and it may be that some of those individuals because they wanted to generate contributions and they wanted to promote themselves, essentially led China down the path that was effectively illegal.
In that case the Chinese did the wrong thing. They may have done it for somewhat innocent reasons, but, again, I stress I don't know. It just seems to me that we should not leap to the conclusion that China is simply trying to subvert our political system in order to promote their own agenda.
JIM LEHRER: Congresswoman Pelosi, what do you think of that? Do you think there's tendency to leap here too quickly in bashing the Chinese?
REP. NANCY PELOSI: Well, I think that, although I have a great deal of respect for our distinguished guest on your show and his views, I do think that to say that people are anti-China because they criticize China, we're pro-human rights, we're pro-nonproliferation, and we want some reciprocity in the trade arrangement, but I think that as is suggested, if we don't have facts on which to go forward, then it is, then we have to handle this issue with great care.
I am particularly concerned that our great Asian American community with which we are blessed in California and throughout the rest of the country is not painted with the same brush as some who may have been involved in improper activities are being painted with, and I think this would be a great casualty of this whole debate if one of--if it were to deter the civic and political participation of the Asian American community, any other community for that matter, who might feel that the acts of a few people would cast a dark light on them. But I--
JIM LEHRER: Could--
REP. NANCY PELOSI: I'm sorry.
JIM LEHRER: I just wanted to ask Congressman Goss that question. Are you concerned that China may be getting an unfair rap on this prematurely?
REP. PORTER GOSS: I think what's happening here is there is a media sensation going on, and I would suggest we all wait till we get the facts, and we're trying to make a good faith effort to do that. I would say, however, that we are clearly over-focused on trade policy with China. There's a lot more to it, as Mrs. Pelosi has just said, and the other thing I've learned so far from this whole exercise is the administration had better get its act together.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Well, we have to leave it there. Thank you all three very much.
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