SENATORS' MEMORIES
May 2, 2000

Seven senators who served in Vietnam discuss the impact of the war on history and their lives. NewsHour Archives: Max Cleland discusses the situation surrounding veterans. (5/29/78) John McCain and John Kerry on the war's 10th anniversary. (4/30/85) John McCain on former Secretary of Defense McNamara's book on the war. (4/17/95) Bob Kerrey and Bob Smith on normalizing relations with Vietnam. (7/11/95) Online Forum: Share your memories from the Vietnam Era.

Online NewsHour Special Report: Remembering Vietnam May 2000: Online Forum: Share your memories from the Vietnam war era May 1, 2000: Elizabeth Farnsworth reports from a Vietnamese village. April 28, 2000: How two veterans responded to anti-war protests. April 20, 2000: A look at the media's effect on the Vietnam War April 12, 2000: A discussion on the Vietnam War's effects on the military April 5, 2000: A look at the Vietnam War's historical impact Jan. 21, 1977: Carter's Pardon May 29, 1978: The Forgotten Wounded April 30, 1985: Lessons Learned April 30, 1990: Healing the Wounds April 17, 1995: Robert McNamara July 11, 1995: Normalizing Relations     March 23, 2000: Secretary of Defense Cohen discusses his trip to Vietnam. Aug. 9, 1999: A discussion of trade with the U.S. ambassador to Vietnam May 15, 1997: Normalizing relations with Vietnam Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Asia.     PBS/The American Experience: Vietnam PBS/POV: RE:Vietnam U.S. State Department	JIM LEHRER: Now, our fifth discussion on the legacy of the Vietnam War, 25 years after the American withdrawal. Tonight, seven men who served in the U.S. military then, and serve now in the United States Senate. Three Republicans: John McCain of Arizona, a Naval aviator shot down over North Vietnam and was a prisoner of war for five and a half years; Bob Smith of New Hampshire, also served in the Navy on an oiler in the Gulf of Tonkin; and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, an Army infantryman, who was wounded twice. And four Democrats: Bob Kerrey of Nebraska was a Navy seal-- he lost one of his legs in a grenade explosion, was awarded the medal of honor-- he later became an active opponent of the war; Max Cleland of Georgia, he lost both legs and his right arm in a grenade explosion; John Kerry of Massachusetts, a Naval officer who served on a gunboat in the Mekong Delta-- later, he was an organizer of Vietnam veterans against the war--and Charles Robb of Virginia a Marine officer who commanded an infantry company in Vietnam. JIM LEHRER: Senators, welcome, first on the personal impact, Senator Bob Kerrey, did you go in politics because of Vietnam?
	Vietnam and politics
	SEN. BOB KERREY, (D) Nebraska: I don't think so. I mean I think I became mostly my experience of being in business and working with government and not liking the way it does things. There is no question both Vietnam and especially the hospitalization, affect my view of various issues. JIM LEHRER: Senator McCain what is the connection between your Vietnam experience and your entering politics? SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R) Arizona: Probably the fact that I wasn't able to have a full, complete career in the Navy as my father and grandfather had because the injuries that I sustained. Also the experience obviously hones one's appreciation and desire for public service. JIM LEHRER: Senator John Kerry, was there a desire for public service that came with you out of Vietnam? SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D) Massachusetts: Well, my immediate desire was to try to end the war and that brought on a certain kind of politics, but it had a profound impact on my life because it really impacted what I thought was expected from public people, from our leaders, greater honesty, greater directness, frankly less of a willingness to manipulate facts and to see things through to the end and tell America very clearly what interests are at stake when you commit American fighting people anywhere. I think all of these things made me feel and that by we had an obligation to do a better job. JIM LEHRER: Senator Hagel, do you think you would be a Senator if you had not been in Vietnam? SEN. CHUCK HAGEL, (R) Nebraska: I don't know. But I think, Jim, like all of us in life, we're products of our own experience base, our own environment; we are shaped, molded and framed from our experience, certainly my experience in Vietnam gave me a dimension that I suspect propelled me toward at least in my later years a political career. JIM LEHRER: Senator Cleland, how about you? SEN. MAX W. CLELAND, (D) Georgia: Well, I had an interest in politics before I went to Vietnam. As a matter of fact, I felt strongly that I needed to take my place in the line or else I couldn't serve in the Congress and order others into battle. It's one of the things that propelled me to go ahead and volunteer for Vietnam. But after I got wounded I wondered what my future might be. In a strange way my scars became my stars. I was able to translate in effect the fact that I had been wounded into the fact that I could be a local candidate for public office and was successful at running for the state Senate 30 years ago in Georgia. So in a strange way, I wouldn't be in the United States Senate today had it not been for Vietnam. JIM LEHRER: Senator Smith, how about you? SEN. BOB SMITH, (R) New Hampshire: Well, I don't think it necessarily propelled me into running for public office. I was fascinated by the civics books when I was as early as the 7th or 8th grade but I came from a military family. My uncles served in World War II, in Korea. My dad was a Naval aviator killed at the end ever the Second World War. My mom was a widow. We grew up with the Navy all around us. I think that was the motivation to serve. But I think as Senator Hagel just said, it does mold you, it does certainly make you a better person having served your country. But I can't say specifically that one way or the other that it helped me or didn't help me to go into public office. JIM LEHRER: Senator Robb, do you think you are a better person because you served in the military, specifically in Vietnam? SEN. CHARLES ROBB, (D) Virginia: Well, I think there is no question about that. I think each of us find out a little more about ourselves. We get some sense of what our values; we ultimately decide what's worth fighting for, because we have figured out what we're willing to die for. And in the long run it's an experience I doubt that any of us, whether we agreed with or disagreed with the political decisions that were made, would want to reverse. It's an important part of who we are and what we stand for, and I think it always will be. And it's one of the things that bind us those of us who fought in Vietnam here in the Senate of the United States.
	An opportunity for growth?
	JIM LEHRER: Senator Bob Kerrey, did you find out something important about yourself you didn't know in Vietnam? SEN. BOB KERREY: Uh, yes. Some of which I would talk about on the air, some of which I wouldn't. (Laughter) JIM LEHRER: Give us the first part. What is the most important thing you found out about yourself that you didn't know before you went there? SEN. BOB KERREY: Oh, that I could lead, that I could give effective orders and lead with the right sense of urgency and make it clear what it was that we were trying to accomplish, and do so in a way that at least satisfied the standards that I set for myself. JIM LEHRER: And that has translated into your life outside Vietnam and outside the military? SEN. BOB KERREY: Right. You know, going to Vietnam was bigger than that. I mean, my world got bigger. All of a sudden I see the world differently, as a consequence of having gone thousands of miles overseas and seeing other people. I mean, it's not just my participation, it's hundreds of thousands of young men who were going across an ocean to fight for people that were different; whose eye shape was different, who spoke a different language. And the world looks a lot bigger, the country looks a lot different as a result of that. JIM LEHRER: Senator McCain, did your world get bigger? SEN. JOHN McCAIN: In...when I was in Vietnam, it got a lot smaller. JIM LEHRER: You mean when you were in prison, right. SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Yes. But what it taught me obviously was that you can't depend on yourself alone, but with the help of others, you are capable of doing better things than you thought you were, but at the same time, you realize very graphically some of your weaknesses, as well. JIM LEHRER: Do you think you would not have learned those lessons any other way, any other place? Did it take an experience like Vietnam for you to learn those? SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Umm... I'm sure that there are other experiences which in many ways are comparable, but I'm not sure that I would have been able to have them driven home in that fashion in any other scenario. JIM LEHRER: And John Kerry, you believe you are a different person for having been there, correct? SEN. JOHN KERRY: Well, I think anybody who is in combat comes out a different person. I think if you face death, and you go through the kinds of experiences that the folks you're talking to went through, you learn things about yourself, about other people, about life. You have to try to conquer a level of fear that's different from what most people face on a daily basis, and I think you do things with a discipline. You learn how to manage day-to- day events that you really don't like, but you learn how to get through them. And you don't always learn those things in life. JIM LEHRER: Did you learn, Senator John Kerry, that you had strengths that you didn't know you had? SEN. JOHN KERRY: You think I learned that... I mean I had hoped I had them, and I certainly feel as if I confirmed that they were there, but you are never sure, and I think it certainly was a learning experience of remarkable proportions. I mean, you come out of there, a lot of us vets are sort of fond of saying once you've survived that, every day afterwards is extra. And it kind of places a different sense of responsibility on you, and a sense of obligation, which is one of the things that I think brought a lot of us to public life, that, you know, we want to make sure that others don't have to necessarily learn it the hard way, and share the benefits of what we went through in order to avoid others having to learn them the same way. JIM LEHRER: Senator Cleland, you were grievously wounded. Do you feel that every day is an extra day? SEN. MAX W. CLELAND: There is no question about that. I feel like I have a second life. Talking about what you learn about yourself, though-- someone once said that adversity introduces a man to himself. I found that I could be broken, I could be wounded, I could be devastated. But I also found that I could, by the grace of God and help of friends, become strong at the broken places. And that's been a marvelous revelation for me, and something that has helped me, certainly, as I pursue a life in politics. JIM LEHRER: Senator Smith, what did you learn about yourself that you didn't know? SEN. BOB SMITH: I think you learn a lot more about other people, and at the same time, learn a lot about yourself. You know, we're all thrown into this. We come from different regions of the country, different backgrounds. And suddenly we are all together in some particular location, and, you know, we were all very much aware of the protests and the things that were going on during the war, when we were fighting it. I had to call my mother on her birthday on October the 11th, the day I shipped out in 1966. Then I came back in a couple of months later, my brother shipped out. We were her only two sons. And she lost her husband in the Second World War. So, you know, it's a special bond that develops. It certainly makes you a better person. There is no question about it. But there is a love that develops between all of us as comrades that transcends anything political, or anything else, because we were all... you know, we were all together in the same cause.
	A special bond
	JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Senator Hagel, that what bonds you together is special? It doesn't matter, it crosses all political lines, crosses all kinds of other lines? SEN. CHUCK HAGEL: Oh, absolutely. No, the human dynamic is the dynamic that counts most. And as you dig deep in your soul, and who you are, you know that your colleagues and your friends have had to dig down just as deep as you, on the same terms. And there is a great equalizer to this, and there is a pride to this, and there is a love to this. And it helps you prioritize what's relevant and what's real. And it is a completeness that unless you had that experience, regardless of political philosophies, you just don't understand it. JIM LEHRER: But Senator Robb, does it tend to make you look down on-- not down on others, but look at others who did not have this experience as lessers in some way -- those who say unlike the two Senator Kerry's, who served and then came back and protested the war, those who did not go and protested the war-- do you have a problem with those folks now? SEN. CHARLES ROBB: Not really. As a matter of fact, I made my peace with that a long time ago. I tried to take a look at everybody that was in the process, and if they made an honest decision, and that was consistent with their beliefs, and were willing to accept the consequences for it, I was ready to move beyond that. But I will say that it is the kind of experience that tests you in a way that you wouldn't be tested otherwise, and it does build a relationship. Some of the colleagues here have talked about the fact that you bond with people. You end up being more concerned about the man on your right and the man on your left, that until you came together under combat circumstances, a combat environment, you didn't know, and didn't care a thing about. And you are willing at some point in that process to give your life or to risk your life for those individuals, and all of the political consequences, all of the motherhood and apple pie and the flag and everything else, tends to be reduced to a very simple experience, particularly in the heat of very serious combat. And I think that's one of those character-building experiences that all of us benefit from, and bond with each other because of. JIM LEHRER: Senator McCain, starting with you, now, let's broaden this thing out a little bit. Talking about testing, much was said that the country was tested in a very crucial way then. As you look back now, what do you think is the most lasting impact of Vietnam on our country? SEN. JOHN McCAIN: I think probably the absolute necessity that if we ever commit young men and women into combat again, that we have to have a clear-cut strategy for victory, and we also have to maintain support of the American people, even in the event of casualties. So it places a great burden on the President of the United States, as well as other leaders, in convincing the American people that it's worth risking our most precious asset, and that's young American blood. And so we have to have a clear- cut strategy for victory. We have to make sure that that victory is won as rapidly as possible, and never make the mistake of employing a flawed strategy and thinking that the American people will support it over time, unless they can see victory. JIM LEHRER: Do you think, Senator McCain, that that lesson has in fact been learned permanently? SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Well, I hope so, but I think that what we saw in the Persian Gulf War.... Norman Schwartzkopf and Colin Powell were junior officers in Vietnam, and I believe that had a significant, dramatic impact on the strategy we employed in the Persian Gulf conflict, which all of us are proud of. JIM LEHRER: Senator Bob Kerrey, how do you feel about the impact on our society, the largest one, you think, from Vietnam? SEN. BOB KERREY: Well, first off, to make it clear, I did not hear what John said, so I can't really respond to his statement... JIM LEHRER: He was talking about commitment of young people to war without the support of the American people is not going to happen again. SEN. BOB KERREY: Oh, you never know. I mean, I would certainly hope it does not happen again. But in democracy... JIM LEHRER: That's essentially what he said. He didn't... SEN. BOB KERREY: Okay. I think it has made us more humble in our approach to foreign policy. And I'm quite proud personally that we were able to get beyond this area. We have had a great success in Cambodia, under the Bush administration, and I think a success under the Clinton administration, normalizing relations with Vietnam. We have a former POW that is our ambassador there. And it took a much longer period of time than that for Americans to get over the sense of loss that they had from the great war, which... the 25th anniversary of that was celebrated on my birthday in 1943. So that war had a much bigger impact on American foreign policy in a devastating way, since the people who fought in that war, their kids were fighting in the Second World War almost 20 years later. So I don't know that you ever get over the war. I think it makes us more mature in our attitude toward sending troops and deploying forces. I think it makes us a bit more humble in the execution of our foreign policy, in the sense that we're the strongest nation on earth militarily, politically, and economically. I think that's is good.
	Vietnam's lasting lessons
	JIM LEHRER: Senator Hagel, what do you think is the most important thing, lasting thing, from Vietnam? SEN. CHUCK HAGEL: Well, every major world event-- and certainly Vietnam was, in many ways-- produced a defining moment in our society, our culture, our history. It was a defining time in a generation, for a generation, and obviously, many lessons are still being learned, and will be applied to our future in foreign policy, in national security, even decisions we make domestically. And some of my colleagues have already addressed them. But I think fundamentally, the real lesson here, as much as anything else, is Colin Powell said it on Sunday: Know yourself and know your enemy. Understand the objective. Why is it that you are committing the honor and the trust and the blood and treasure and prestige of your nation? What is it that you are about to accomplish, and how then do you accomplish it? Those wrapped into one, I think, are the valuable lessons of Vietnam. JIM LEHRER: Senator Smith, what do you think the real lesson of Vietnam is? SEN. BOB SMITH: Well, I think we're reminded of it every day. If you take a walk down along the Vietnam Wall, 58,000-plus names, it's a memorial that makes us all think and reflect, and I think for the first time in the history of America, you folks were there with the cameras, and you saw the people put in the body bags. You saw people like Max Cleland and Bob Kerrey and John Kerry coming home wounded, and Chuck Hagel coming home wounded, and John McCain coming back as a POW. Those are lasting memories, and I think... I couldn't hear what Senators McCain and John Kerry said, but I assume they said that, "look, we have to learn a lesson here. We just don't commit American forces without a... without the total commitment of the American people and the politicians, frankly, to win the war." That's the right thing to do, and I think if we learn any lesson, I hope it's that one. JIM LEHRER: Senator John Kerry, do you think that's the lesson of Vietnam? SEN. JOHN KERRY: Actually, I couldn't hear him, unfortunately, so I can't answer that. JIM LEHRER: What do you think is the lesson of Vietnam? SEN. JOHN KERRY: Well, I think there are many lessons, Jim. I don't think there is one lesson. I mean, there are different levels of lesson. I think there are lessons about how you treat veterans. I mean, they were significantly cast aside when they were returned. They are lessons about how you provide for your army. The draft was extraordinarily unfair and uneven, and helped to split the country apart. There are lessons about how you define your interests. I mean, we were all over the place, and I think it was very difficult. But I think the most important thing is that the jury is out. The verdict is out on whether or not leaders really will draw all of the lessons from Vietnam. I have a suspicion that the paragraphs in history that write about it will always characterize it as a mistake, and we failed to understand this and that. The question is will leaders in the future properly define to the American people what we're trying to achieve, be honest with them from start to finish about those definitions of interest, and then, once they've committed, make absolutely certain that there is a strategy for victory? And for instance, John McCain and I agreed wholeheartedly simultaneously that you shouldn't eliminate the potential of ground troops into Kosovo, because you don't want to take away any tool that might provide you with a victory. So even in recent days, we have had a question of whether or not that lesson was sufficiently learned. It'll be really a test of the individual leaders and their judgments of what that war meant, and that's why I think it's so important for all of us to contribute now to our perceptions of what those lessons really ought to be. JIM LEHRER: Senator Robb, the most important lesson, in your opinion of Vietnam, from Vietnam? SEN. CHARLES ROBB: Well, I would take a slightly different read on the question of whether or not we would ever commit our forces without the full support of the American people. I would say that we can't sustain an operation. There may be times when a President is required, because of the particular circumstances that confront him or her, to go ahead and confront our troops, particularly if we end up being on the short end of an attack, but we're not going to be able to sustain an operation over an extended period of time without that full support, and we have to fully understand the implications of your particular medium, the media, and the effect that all of what you report on a day-to-day basis in real time has on the ability of the American people to withstand. And one of the benefits, certainly, of a democracy is that we better understand that we can't get into a position where we're no longer supported by the people that we represent, and I think that is the common denominator with all of us. But I would hesitate to say we couldn't get into an action without the full support, because there may be circumstances where that won't be the case. JIM LEHRER: Senator Cleland, you have the final word here. How would you put all this together, in your opinion? What is the single most important lesson or lessons of Vietnam? SEN. MAX W. CLELAND: A powerful impact leading to a powerful lesson. The powerful impact of the Vietnam War was that it split the American people from their government, and ultimately split the American people from their military. The all-volunteer force of '73 was actually a result of that split. I think we're still reeling from that lack of confidence in government, and to a certain extent, in our military affairs. That leads to a great lesson that the next time we commit our forces, or in the future when we commit our forces, it must be in the vital interest of the United States. We must have a military objective that is achievable, and have finally have an exit strategy to withdraw those forces. If we learn those lessons, Vietnam might have been worth it. JIM LEHRER: Senator Cleland, as you sit there now 25 years later talking about this, is there any bitterness in you about what happened to you? SEN. MAX W. CLELAND: Frustration. Frustration, not too much bitterness. Frustration, day-to-day frustration, just dealing with the physical disability. But I learned a long time ago that I have two choices: One, to get bitter, or the other to be better, and I decided to be better. JIM LEHRER: Thank you, Senator Cleland and all other Senators.