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| LOCAL OR FEDERAL? | |
 October 20, 1998 
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Politicians are squaring-off over the direction of education spending.
Republicans favor local control, while Democrats prefer federal control.
After this background report, Phil
Ponce leads a discussion. There is also an online
forum, where you can let your opinion be heard.
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PHIL PONCE: Now the view from education's front lines. We get the perspectives of four players with "hands on" experience at the state and local level: two mayors, Republican Stephen Goldsmith of Indianapolis, and Democrat Tom Menino of Boston, and two educators, Lisa Graham Keegan, Arizona State Superintendent of Public Instruction, and Rod Paige, Houston Independent School Superintendent. Welcome all. Let's take it one issue at a time. |
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30,000 new teachers: a good thing? |
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LISA GRAHAM KEEGAN, Superintendent, Arizona Schools: I don't think it's an appropriate role for the federal government. In Arizona what it will mean is approximately one teacher in 1/3 of our schools, and reducing class size, there's no empirical evidence that increases achievement. We have smaller class size now than we did when I was in school, and we have lower test scores. It would have been much better to give $17 ½ million to Arizona. Let us give it to individual students, and let them choose, let their parents choose the programs that will enhance their education. PHIL PONCE: Superintendent Paige, class size - reducing class size may not have that much of an impact? ROD PAIGE, Superintendent, Houston Independent School District: Well, we think reducing class size does have an impact, and we think that additional teachers in the classroom will be of benefit to the Houston Independent School District. We welcome the teachers. PHIL PONCE: And Mayor Goldsmith, as somebody who's - who has a "hands on" approach towards education, how do you feel about Indianapolis getting extra teachers? MAYOR STEPHEN GOLDSMITH, Indianapolis: Well, you know, if it's somebody else's vehicle, I think everybody will say they want more teachers, and we'd be pleased to have more teachers, and this is the point, dropping more teachers into a school bureaucracy, a monopoly - as Lisa says, preventing parents from making choices about where their children go to school. The billion dollars - if the federal government is going to spend a billion dollars, it would be better put in the hands of the parents so they could have choices about where their children go to school. PHIL PONCE: Mayor Menino, better in the hands of the parents than more teachers in the classroom? MAYOR TOM MENINO, Boston: Well, teachers will help us reduce class size, and that's part of the solution. We have choice in Boston, and we want to have parents have choice, but choice is for good schools, and we have reduced class size, you will have good schools, but let me just say there's more to the classroom than just teachers. You have to have after-school programs, before school programs, and that's part of the success story that we're showing in the city of Boston. |
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Should school construction be a priority?
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PHIL PONCE: And Superintendent Keegan, let's go to issue number 2. The school construction component that did not pass, do schools - do those of you in the front lines need more buildings, renovated classrooms? LISA GRAHAM KEEGAN: Well, if we do, it's an issue for the state to grapple with, and the way we've done it in Arizona is to say that we're going to put that money with individual students and make sure that all students have access to enough money for capital purposes. It - thank goodness that the capital money coming from Washington did not go through. I think that's a terrible way to answer the need for school classrooms.
ROD PAIGE: Well, we think that it's pretty clear that there's a big need for additional repair and renovation, only just in school facilities, but back to the idea about school choice and this idea about the new teachers, why do we have to treat this like a zero sum game, why can't we do both? Obviously, we've got to make the schools wonderful schools and productive schools, otherwise, choice is meaningless. So in Houston Independent School District we have a wide system of choice, but we also are going to provide good, sound teaching for our students, and especially in reading. PHIL PONCE: Mayor Goldsmith, would Indianapolis have liked to have seen money come their way for more schools renovating classrooms?
PHIL PONCE: Mayor Menino, before we get - I'll try to get back to the issue of school choice in vouchers towards the end of the segment - but how about it, would Boston welcome more money for more buildings, better buildings? MAYOR TOM MENINO: Sure. We have some school buildings in Boston that go back to 1890, but I'm investing capital money in the city of Washington that's neither state for federal because we have to make sure those schools are educationally ready, and that's what I'm trying to do in Boston, and, you know, everybody talks about choice. In Boston we have a choice plan. 80 percent of our parents get their first choice. But let me just say if you want vouchers, that means you've given up on the school system, you can't do the job. So get out of the business. I want all kids to have equal opportunity to get to all good schools in our system. |
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Defining a role for the federal government.
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LISA GRAHAM KEEGAN: We do go about our business. I don't have any issue with the fact that at the federal level we're talking about education. I think it's the number one issue in the country, and that's what's being picked up on. I think what's what we're seeing here. It's just that you have to question the role of the federal government. I think it's a terrific role for the federal government to give statistical information, tell us how schools are performing, to have a very limited role, and when they do spend Arizona's money, giving it back to Arizona, give it back on a per pupil basis so that we can make decisions locally at the state level, ultimately the parent level, about what is most appropriate, and we're seeing increased academic achievement in Arizona. We think that's because of open choice that we have other options I know we'll talk about later, but also strong academic standards and training. Those are the things we want to focus on, and this really just presupposes that the only answer is to put one new teacher in every one out of three of our schools, and I think that's a ridiculous presumption. PHIL PONCE: Superintendent Keegan, just let me follow up on something you said. You're saying that, in your opinion, the federal government has, what, only a statistical clearinghouse kind of a role, how about policy or oversight? LISA GRAHAM KEEGAN: I think their best role would be to give us information about student performance across the country. I think that's their best role. From a policy standpoint I certainly think that everybody likes to talk about what works in schools; we do at the state level as well. The bottom line is it gets done in a school; it gets done in a classroom by a teacher; and the best and most powerful way to improve achievement is to make sure that the children themselves are the coin of the realm, that they're carrying all the money available to them; not that we have my office or certainly not the federal office dictating what's going to happen between the teacher and the child. PHIL PONCE: Superintendent Paige, how do you see what the federal government's role should be? ROD PAIGE: Well, from a philosophical point of view, I think the federal government has a role to play in education. I think it should be a very limited role. I think funding is a part of that role, and we accept that funding. I think there would be some difficulty if they were guiding and making policy and directing, which we think is a state role, but the - this, what we're doing right now, from a practical point of view, is going to have some impact, but it's not going to solve the whole problem and make the world safe for democracy. What we've got to do is create high performance organizations and get good, committed, and caring teachers, and get the job done in that way. I think this is a step. It's a step in the right direction, but it's not the total solution by any means. |
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The impact of political debate on the classroom.
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PHIL PONCE: And Superintendent Paige, just to follow up, how do you see the - what impact, if any, is the national debate on - what some people describe, perhaps rightly, as a very partisan debate - what impact does it have on your work?
PHIL PONCE: Mayor Goldsmith, the federal government's role? MAYOR STEPHEN GOLDSMITH: Actually, I think the debate in Washington is a helpful one. The future of cities - this is the most important issue - in a post-welfare reform society have every child have an opportunity for a good education - reforming the public school system - "the" most critical issue - I think the philosophical argument - whether you just fund a teacher in every third school in the public school system, whether you fund parents for more choices, as perhaps the Republicans would prefer, I think this debate is healthy and in the long run, if we pay attention to the empirical evidence about what makes schools better, public schools and parents have more choices, I think that's good for everybody. PHIL PONCE: And Mayor Menino, what would you like to see the federal government doing that would help Boston schools? MAYOR TOM MENINO: Well, give us the resources, of course, from Washington but don't - you know, all school districts are different - don't give us the cookie cutter approach. Let us have some discretion in how you use those resources, and when you look at the kids that are coming into Boston public schools, the diversity of those children, we have to have a lot of after-school programs to help them through the process. That's what I'm looking at, is making sure that kid gets a well-rounded education, not just during the five hours they spend in the classroom, but before school and after school. PHIL PONCE: And Mayor Menino, how do you see the impact of the national partisan debate on what happens at the local level? MAYOR TOM MENINO: I think it's very healthy. I think it's healthy, and when the mayors met in June, the number one conversation we had was about how we improve public education in America. Crime wasn't mentioned at all, because we know that education is the height of all success in life. If you don't have a good education, you can't be a success. We're preparing our kids for the 21st century. |
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The role of Mayors and local authorities.
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LISA GRAHAM KEEGAN: I think it absolutely does. I'm married to the mayor of my city. I applaud his approach. He is activist where it comes to education - I think all of us have a responsibility now, given where we are with our kids - and we're not where we need to be - focusing on education, understanding our role, doing everything that we can, and I think most of those decisions will have to do with making sure all kids have access to the school that they want to go to and that that school has the freedom to implement as stringent and academic program and as high an expectation for all children as they can, and that comes from the freedom to do that, and the resources at the school level, so, yes, I think it's an appropriate role for mayors. PHIL PONCE: Superintendent Paige, let's talk briefly - let's expand on the question of school choice. Do you see - how do you assess the level of support right now for school choice, for vouchers? Has there been a sea chance? ROD PAIGE: Well, I think we need to be careful to distinguish between school choice and vouchers, but both I think is growing. I think the public is expressing a good deal of interest in both, and I think that the alert school administrator will take that into consideration. In Houston we have a wise system of choice including some relationships with private schools that's managed by the school board in the Houston Independent School District. PHIL PONCE: Mayor Goldsmith, how do you assess the level of support for increased school choice? MAYOR STEPHEN GOLDSMITH: Well, this is a huge battle -- in the five or six years that we've been raising money - private money for vouchers and advocating for parental choice and tax credits, I think the whole mood of the country has changed. And the goal here and taking your question to the Arizona superintendent, the goal - I don't think there is one answer, whether Mayor Daley is doing a good job in Chicago - charter schools often do a good job; parental choice does a good job. What I see for our city is I no longer want a parent who aspires to be middle class to have to leave the center of our city in order to pick a school for their child. And the more choices we have in the city, I think that'll make good school systems with good superintendents like the one in Houston, even better because of the competitive pressure it puts on the system. PHIL PONCE: Competitive pressure on the system, Mayor Menino? MAYOR TOM MENINO: I think vouchers are an issue out there. What we've done in Boston, we've created pilot schools, which is a system - the schools come right of the system - are independent schools, break all the teacher contracts we have, and they're very independent. Vouchers are out there, but I'm not a big supporter of vouchers because it looks like that I've given up - but I want to give kids the opportunity to go anyplace they want to. You know, 98 percent of our kids in America go to public schools, and I'd like to see that continue. |
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Will politicians continue to talk about education?
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MAYOR TOM MENINO: Well, because they finally realized that education is what - a success. If you don't have a good education, you can't be successful in life, and they're understanding - we've tried everything else, now let's get to education. We tried all the other issues, let's give kids good starts in life -- early childhood programs, you know, Head Start, after school programs, 2 to 6 programs, after school, they understand finally - they've all woken up and said, gee, maybe if we educate these kids, they won't become problems of our public safety issues in America. So I'm just saying that America has finally woken up and education is the number one issue, and should stay the number one issue. PHIL PONCE: Mayor Goldsmith, do you agree that it's one of these issues that is - from the people upwards to Washington, would you say? MAYOR STEPHEN GOLDSMITH: Oh, absolutely. I think Washington appropriately has noticed that education is the most vital issue. What I do hope is that they won't distract the public with these cookie cutter answers and say, you know, we're spending $400 billion today in our country on education; this billion dollars is not going to be a panacea; we ought to figure out how to provide the best possible answers; and the dialogue is good, superficial answers won't be. PHIL PONCE: That's all the time we have. I thank you all for joining us. |
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First
of all, 30,000 new teachers this year. Superintendent Keegan, is that
a good thing? 
PHIL
PONCE: A terrible way, Superintendent Paige? 
MAYOR
STEPHEN GOLDSMITH: Well, sure, but, again, I think it misses the point.
What we want to have is the best, highest quality education for urban
children. And that means that if these children have good schools, good
principals, good teachers, let's free up those teachers to have more
authority, more discretion. If a poor parent's child is trapped in an
under-performing school, then that parent should have the same choices
that middle class parents have and wealthy parents have, so building
a fancier school with a poorly performing bureaucracy is not the answer.
The answer is to put pressure on the bureaucracy, decentralize the system,
give the teachers the discretion, but, in the end, it's the control
parents have over their children, which will produce the most change
in the system. A bigger, fancier building might be nice, might be helpful,
but it's not the answer. 
PHIL
PONCE: Superintendent Keegan, again, I'd like to hold off on speaking
specifically about vouchers, for now, but what impact do you see that
the partisanship at the national level is having at the state or local
level, any, or are you just going about your business? 
ROD
PAIGE: Well, actually we - while the philosophical debate is going along,
we're going to be dealing with it from a practical point of view. We
know we've got to create good, efficient organizations, and we've got
to have good teachers, and we're going to go ahead and get our reading
program effective, as we're doing. And in the meantime we are incorporating
choice as well, as is happening in Boston. We have a wide system of
choice, and we like to give parents as much choice as possible. 
PHIL
PONCE: Superintendent Keegan, in some cities, mayors such as Mayor Menino
and Mayor Daley of Chicago have taken a real "hands on" approach to
education. Do you see that kind of an approach as bearing fruit? 
PHIL
PONCE: And Mayor Menino, getting back to the - getting back to the political
component, how do you sort of react to or divvy up how each party is
attempting to take ownership of - it would appear to some-attempting
to take ownership of education as a political issue?