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| DRAWING THE LINE | |
 November 16, 1999 
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Zero-tolerance discipline policies are growing in popularily across the country. Following a background report, Gwen Ifill discusses zero tolerance with two school administrators, a teacher and a guidance counselor.
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GWEN IFILL: Now, the perspectives of four educators with
hands-on experience. Two run public school systems in cities with a zero-tolerance
policy. Rod Paige is the superintendent for the Houston Independent School
District, and Paul Vallas is the chief executive officer for the Chicago
Public Schools. Joining them are Patrick Welsh, an English teacher at
an Alexandria, Va., high school, and Brenda Melton, a San Antonio guidance
counselor. She works at an alternative school for problem students.
Mr. Paige, Houston has had a zero-tolerance program for about four or five years. Exactly what does that mean? |
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| Zero-tolerance policies apply to all | ||||||||||||||||||||
 ROD
PAIGE, school superintendent, Houston: Our policy specifically outlines
incidents of weapons. We have particular concerns about that. And we have
a zero-tolerance policy regarding weapons. When a student brings a weapon
to school, the student is out of there. We will expel the student. But
we don't expel the student to the street. We expel them to alternative
placement, an alternative school.
GWEN IFILL: Assuming I am a B student and I'm carrying a Swiss Army knife to use as a can opener and I'm caught at this metal detector in the Houston public schools. What happens to me? ROD PAIGE: First of all, you being a B student is irrelevant. The fact that you've got a weapon means that you violated our student code of conduct and you're going to be dealt with for that purpose, for that incident. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Vallas, the same question to you. What would happen to me in your school system?
GWEN IFILL: So, even if I had no previous record or any previous evidence that I've ever caused trouble before, the same thing would apply. PAUL VALLAS: Well, you would face expulsion. One of the reasons that we have hearings, and we have an independent objective hearing officer, is to consider other cases; first-time offense, first-time non-violent offense, is it a pocketknife? What was the intent? Sometimes hearing officers will recommend something less than expulsion. For example, they may recommend detention -- in-school detention, Saturday detention. But once again, there are certain offenses, and they are clearly enumerated. Everyone understands what those offenses are. And the failure to comply with the zero-tolerance policy will result in a student facing expulsion. |
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| Schools may not be very dangerous | ||||||||||||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: Mr. Welsh, you teach public school here in Virginia. PATRICK WELSH, high school English teacher: Right. GWEN IFILL: How serious is this problem, this problem of school violence?
Some parents who go to private schools -- whether parents feel guilty about sending kids to private schools, the limousine liberals, everybody is blowing up the problem of school violence. In my school, which is 45 percent African American and 23 percent white and the rest foreign-born, there's this image of school as a violent place. And yet, when you go in the school, it's quiet. The halls are almost so quiet, it's boring. We had a head mistress from a British school -- the Ascot School -- and she came to our school. She's a friend of my wife. And she was amazed at the order. And she said, the schools in London or any British city were never as quiet as this. GWEN IFILL: Brenda Melton, you teach at an alternative school where presumably you're dealing with what's been ejected from the public school system. Is the problem as dire as we have heard?
GWEN IFILL: Is it a justified hysteria? PAUL VALLAS: May I respond to something on that? GWEN IFILL: Well, let me just ask her -- finish that question. Is it a justified hysteria? BRENDA MELTON: I think when you see the media showing Columbine pictures for over 30 days every day, you see that the parents become very concerned. One month after Columbine happened, there was a number of students who -- it was rumored that there would be more violent episodes throughout United States -- in fact, in San Antonio. There were a number of students and parents who kept their kids out of schools that one month after-- on that anniversary date. I think the hysteria is waning somewhat, but we're still seeing some episodes. For instance, I had a student who wore a trench coat to school. He had been wearing that coat for four years. He is a senior. And because of the trench coat, some hysteria was created. He went upstairs and had a confrontation with an assistant principal. That ended up being a violent episode because he was confronted about wearing this trench coat. There's a number of changes that have come about as a result of this feeling within the school community. And I think sometimes what is seen happening is that we're treating some incidents differently than we did before Columbine. |
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| Zero tolerance came before Columbine | ||||||||||||||||||||
| GWEN IFILL: Mr. Vallas, you wanted to respond?
One of the reasons that are schools are safe and as safe as suburban and down-state schools is because we have not only extended-day after-school programs to keep kids off the street, but we also have a very tough disciplinary policy; we have a zero-tolerance policy. But let me point out that our zero-tolerance policy is clear. Everyone understands what it is. The parents do. The children do. It's posted on the boards. And the punishment fits the offense. In addition, when we expel, we expel no one to the street. We have contractual relationships with 29 privatized schools. And when students are expelled for whatever reason, those children are expelled to an alternative school. They are put in an alternative educational setting. But our zero-tolerance policy has helped to contribute to the safety that our children feel in the schools. But, nevertheless, there are still dangerous neighborhoods out there. I had a seventh-grader who was murdered yesterday in the evening in his neighborhood, who attends a public school that I went to 35 years ago. So the bottom line is we still have kids who have access to weapons, who live in very dangerous neighborhoods. And sometimes there is a risk that some of that activity is going to spill off into the schools. So, our zero-tolerance policy helps ensure that our schools are safe and secure place. GWEN IFILL: Excuse me. Mr. Paige, could you give us your experience? Have you also seen crime and violence go down in your schools?
We have a zero tolerance with weapons. When a student comes to school with a weapon, the student can expect to be recommended for expulsion. This expulsion, like Chicago, is going to go to an alternative placement where the student will still have an opportunity for instruction and still an opportunity to continue their studies. They will be denied access to the regular classroom in the Houston Independent School District. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Welsh, I wanted to follow up on that. What we're hearing from two urban school superintendents is that they were dealing with this problem before Columbine.
But I still think one of the things we've got to talk about is when you separate a kid from school, especially a lot of the kids who get in trouble, they have nowhere to go. The schools are the center of their lives. They have no structure at home, very often no parents. And they're in a school -- they have structure. They have adults who care about them. To separate them from the school, like in Decatur, unless they have weapons is an outrage to me. ROD PAIGE: I need to make a point -- PATRICK WELSH: To throw them on the street. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Paige, I just wanted to let Mr. Welsh finish. Go ahead. Now you can speak up. ROD PAIGE: OK. It is not accurate to say they have no place to go. When a student is expelled, they are expelled to an alternative placement. And this alternative placement is, in fact, a school. And a school has the basic courses that the student would get in the regular classroom setting. It is an alternative setting -- BRENDA MELTON: If I can -- GWEN IFILL: One moment. ROD PAIGE: -- where the student has the type of assistance that they would need. |
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| Students need a place to go | ||||||||||||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: Brenda Melton, where do parents come in on all of this?
So we look at the whole student. And we provide, No. 1, the education that they need, and what the students report is they like the small environment. They like the fact that the teachers have a connection to them and really care about them. A group of my girls the other day in a group counseling session said that, you know, when we raise our hand at the other school, nobody cares whether we raise our hand or not. They call on the good kids. So there's a perception that they're not wanted, that they aren't cared about, that the school doesn't connect to them, and that's where we've lost a lot of kids. There is some scientific evidence that the larger the school, the more incidents of violence will occur. And I think what we're seeing in larger school communities are some school-within-a school concepts that are beginning to bring about some closeness with students and staff. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Vallas, in the effort to find the correct answers to these question, are some school districts running the danger of substituting policy for good judgment? PAUL VALLAS: You know, the issue in Decatur is not an issue of whether or not zero tolerance is a good policy. It's an issue of whether or not the policy is being fairly applied. It's an issue of whether or not the policy is even being communicated to everybody in the school so they understand what the policy is and so that the parents clearly understand, the pupils understand, the teachers, everyone understands what that policy is. And also, it's an issue of whether or not you're just expelling kids to the street or you're placing them in some sort of educational alternative system. Like Houston, our policy is very clear; it's very concise. Everybody understands it. Everybody knows what it is. Parents, everybody. Churches, religious institutions, everybody involved in the school knows what the policy is. Like Houston, our policy, the punishment fits the offense. And there is due process where you can go before a hearing officer. And finally, like Houston, when we expel, we expel no one to the street. We expel everyone to an alternative school. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Welsh? PATRICK WELSH: You were talking about a Swiss Army knife. We had at least one girl until our school who brought a box cutter to school, totally innocently. I don't know whether it was her brother's or what. She was expelled under the zero-tolerance policy. GWEN IFILL: Did she not know what the rules were? PATRICK WELSH: I don't know if she knew she had that box cutter. It was a girl from a foreign country. A couple of school board members told me that it broke their heart to expel her. They would not budge on the rule. You with the Swiss Army knife might be a little different. PAUL VALLAS: I really have to make a point. GWEN IFILL: Briefly.
We need to be teaching our children -- obviously, we need to be preparing them academically for the world. But we also need to teach them very early on that there are consequences for misconduct. There's consequences for improper behavior. And we also owe it to the students in school who want to come to school and focus. We need for our students to know that the school is indeed, a safe and secure place. And the zero-tolerance policy helps ensure that. GWEN IFILL: Well, we're all out of time. We could talk about this all night, but I have to thank you all for joining us. |
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PAUL
VALLAS, CEO, Chicago Public Schools: Well, very similar. You could be
an A student or B student, you are in possession of a dangerous weapon,
you can face expulsion. All students who face expulsion are subject
or have the opportunity to go before a hearing officer who can then
make a recommendation for something lesser than expulsion. So, sometimes
at that hearing, a principal can make an appeal that a student be given
a punishment less than expulsion. But you are facing expulsion if you
are in possession of a dangerous weapon, or if you commit any number
of serious offenses, controlled substances, assault, arson, any number
of offenses. Let me point out that our zero-tolerance policy is a 24-hour-a-day
policy. So, if you are arrested for a serious offense on Sunday, you
will face expulsion on Monday. 
PATRICK
WELSH: It's totally overblown. It's beyond belief. Instead of worrying
about -- I don't worry about kids in school. School is the safest place
during the day. We had two guys get off the bus recently and started
a big fight in front of the principal, five feet from the principal
and the cop. And the principal took them in and said, "Why did
you do this?" And he said, "because I knew you'd break it
up. And if we were off on the streets, we might have gone the limit."
And it's a constant thing. 
BRENDA
MELTON, high school guidance counselor: Actually, I'm a counselor at
a alternative school in inner-city San Antonio. Actually, we do have
a number of referrals for violent offenders that are sent to our school
for short- or long-term placements. I don't see that the violence is
that pervasive. I do see that what we are experiencing in the schools
is a hysteria as a result of the number of violent episodes within the
last two years, particularly Columbine. 
PAUL
VALLAS: Sure. Absolutely. Let me make the point, we had our zero-tolerance
policy two years before Columbine, in fact, since I've been superintendent.
We've had a zero-tolerance policy going on four years. Over the past
four years since I have been superintendent, 100 students have been
murdered in their communities. None in the schools, none on school grounds
-- but a hundred kids killed in the street, most of them innocent bystanders,
many of them victimized by gangs. Let me point out, that three or our
years ago, we confiscated 150, 160 weapons at the door every year. Last
year, we confiscated 31. We used to have a lot of fights in the schools.
There used to be a lot of vandalism in the schools. 
ROD
PAIGE: Absolutely. Crime has gone down in the Houston Independent School
District. It's going down each year. I think part of it has to do with
the implementation with our zero-tolerance policy. And I concur with
Superintendent Vallas. We've been at this for a long time. And we're
not just now waking up to understand that we've got to provide a safe
learning environment for students, and for our teachers, and principals.
This policy in the Independent Houston School District is at least a
6-year-old policy. It has not been altered except for one alteration
in which we redefine a weapon. It's specific for weapons. 
PATRICK
WELSH: And so is my school. And I think it's the arrogance of a lot
of suburban schools -- the Columbine principal for instance, saying,
what a wonderful school he had. But that guy seemed to be asleep. It's
the urban schools where there was a lot of fear before or a lot of let's
say kind of racist perceptions that started zero tolerance and that
started getting very strict on offenders. 
BRENDA
MELTON: Our parents are involved in our alternative program from the
very inception. The first time they walk into the building, they meet
not only with the principal, the assistant principal and myself as the
counselor, but they do meet our staff as well. So there's a connection
automatically. Within our program, we have a comprehensive approach.
Conflict resolution is taught. We have life skills and most of our students
are there for drug offenses. But certainly, there is a number of other
problems that go along with the drug offenses. 
PAUL
VALLAS: Very quickly, two years ago, we had someone bring a box cutter
to one of our high schools -- maybe quite innocently -- and then they
proceeded to get in a fight with another girl and proceeded to slash
that girl. The girl needed something like 40 stitches. The bottom line
is the policy is clear; it's concise. But we do not expel children to
the street; we put them in alternative settings.