THE 3RD PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
October 17, 2000

In the second part of the final presidential debate, Vice President Gore and Governor Bush examine their education policies and debate the growth of the government.

Online Special: Election 2000 Oct. 15, 2000: Debate Night: National Congressional Debate Oct. 11, 2000: The Second Presidential Debate Oct. 5, 2000: The Vice Presidential Debate Oct. 3, 2000: The First Presidential Debate Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Politics and Campaigns, Shields and Gigot and Election 2000.     Debating Our Destiny Commission on Presidential Debates	Holding teachers and schools accountable
	MR. LEHRER: These folks submitted 18 -- 18 questions on education, and the first one is -- that will be asked on Education will go to you, Governor, and will be asked by Angie Pettick (sp). Angie Pettick (sp), where are you? There -- there she is. Governor, right there. GOV. BUSH: Oh, thanks. Hi, Angie. ANGIE PETTICK (sp): I've heard a lot about education and the need to hold teachers and schools accountable, and I certainly agree with that. But as an individual with an educational background and also a parent, I have seen a lot of instances where the parents are unresponsive to the teachers or flat-out uninvolved in their child's education. How do you intend to not only hold the teachers and schools accountable, but also hold parents accountable? GOV. BUSH: Well, you know, it's hard to make people love one another. (Chuckles.) I wish I knew the law, because I'd darn sure sign it. I wish I knew the law that said all of us should be good parents. One of the things the next president must do is to remind people that if we're going to have a responsible period in America, that each of us must love our children with all our heart and all our soul. I happen to believe strong accountability encourages parental involvement, though. I think when you measure and post results on the Internet or in the town newspapers, most parents say, "Wait a minute. My child's school isn't doing what I want it to do," and therefore become involved in education I recognize there are some who just don't seem to care. But there are a lot of parents who feel like everything is going well in their child's school and all of a sudden they wake up and realize that, "Wait a minute. Standards aren't being met." That's why I'm so strong for accountability. I believe we ought to measure a lot -- three, four, five, six, seven, eighth grade. We do so in my state of Texas. One of the good things we've done in Texas. is we've got strong accountability, because you can't cure unless you know; you can't -- you can't solve a problem unless you diagnose it. I strongly believe that one of the best things to encourage parental involvement also is to know that the classrooms will be safe and secure. That's why I support a Teacher Liability Act at the federal level, that says if a teacher or principal upholds reasonable standards of classroom discipline, they can't be sued. They can't be sued. I think parents will be more involved with education when they know their children's classrooms are safe and secure as well. I also believe that we need to say to people that if you cannot meet standards, there has to be a consequence, instead of just -- kind of the soft bigotry of low expectations, that there has to be a consequence. We can't continue to shuffle children through school. And one of the consequences -- MR. LEHRER: Governor? GOV. BUSH: -- is to allow parents to have different choices. MR. LEHRER: Vice President Gore? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Yeah, we have a huge difference between us on this question. I'd like to start by telling you what my vision is. I see a day in the United States of America where all of our public schools are considered excellent, world class; where there are no failing schools; where the classrooms are small enough in size -- number of students -- so that the teacher can spend enough one-on-one time with each -- with each student. Now, that means recruiting new teachers for the public schools. It means, in my plan, hiring bonuses to get 100,000 new teachers in the public schools within the next four years. It means also helping local school districts, that sometimes find the parents of school-age children out-voted on bond issues, to give them some help with interest-free bonding authority so that we can build new schools and modernize the classrooms. We need to give teachers the training and professional development that they need to -- including paid time off to go visit the classroom of a master teacher and to pick up some new skills. I want to give every middle-class family a $10,000-a-year tax deduction for college tuition, so that -- so that middle-class families will always be able to send their kids on to college I want to work for universal preschool, because we know from all the studies that the youngsters learn -- kids learn more in the first few years of life than anywhere else. Now I said there was a contrast. Governor Bush is for vouchers, and in his plan, he proposes to drain more money, more taxpayer money, out of the public schools for private school vouchers than all of the money that he proposes in his entire budget for public schools themselves, and only one in 20 students would be eligible for these vouchers, and they wouldn't even pay the full tuition to private school. I think that's a mistake. I don't think we should give up on the private (sic) schools and leave kids trapped in failing schools; I think we -- I think we should make it the number-one priority to make our schools the best in the world, all of them. MR. LEHRER: Governor, what is your position on vouchers? GOV. BUSH: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think any time we end with one of these attacks, it's appropriate to respond. Here's what I think: First of all, vouchers are up to states. If you want to do a voucher program in Missouri, fine. See, I strongly believe in local control of schools. I'm a governor of a state, and I don't like it when the federal government tells us what to do. I believe in local control of schools. But here's what I've said. I've said to the extent we spend federal money on disadvantaged children, we want the schools to show us whether or not the children are learning. What's unreasonable about that? We expect there to be standards met, and we expect there to be measurement. And if we find success, we'll praise it. But when we find children trapped in schools that will not change and will not teach, instead of saying, "Oh, this is okay in America -- just to shuffle poor kids through schools" -- there has to be a consequence. And the consequence is, that federal portion of federal money will go to the parent so the parent can go to a tutoring program or another public school or another private -- or a private school. You see, there has to be a consequence. We've got a society that says, "Hey, the status quo is fine. Just move 'em through." And guess who suffers. MR. LEHRER: What is the harm on that? What's the other side on that? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, the program that he's proposing is not the one that he just described. Under your plan, Governor Bush, states would be required to pay vouchers to students to match the vouchers that the federal government would put up. Now here's -- and, the way it would happen is that under his plan, if a school was designated as failing, the kids would be trapped there for another three years, and then some of them would get federal vouchers, and the state would be forced to match that money. Under my plan, if a school is failing, we work with the states to give them the authority and the resources to close down that school and reopen it right away with a new principal, a new faculty, a turn-around team of specialists who know what they're doing. It's based on the plan of Governor Jim Hunt in North Carolina, and it works great. MR. LEHRER: So no vouchers under -- in a Gore administration? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: If I thought that there was no alternative, then I might feel differently. But I have an obligation to fight to make sure there are no failing schools. We've got to turn around all -- most schools are excellent. But we've got to make sure that all of them are.
	Empowering teachers
	MR. LEHRER: Andrew Kasberg (sp) has a related question on Education that's right on this subject. Mr. Kasberg (sp), where are you? There you are. And it's for Vice President Gore. ANDREW KASBERG (sp): Mr. Vice President. In the school district in which I work and in countless others across the nation, we face crumbling school buildings, increased school violence, student apathy, overcrowding, lack of funding, lawsuits. The list goes on. I could mention low teacher pay, but I won't. (Laughter.) What can you tell me and my fellow American teachers today about your plans for our immediate future? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: What grade do you teach? ANDREW KASBERG (sp): High school. MR. LEHRER: Oh, oh, oh -- that's a violation of your rule, Vice President Gore. VICE PRESIDENT GORE: (Chuckles.) High school. (Laughter.) I mentioned before that -- MR. LEHRER: Sir -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- the local communities are having a harder time passing bond issues. Traditionally, if you've been involved in a campaign like that, you know that the parents with kids in school are the ones that turn out and vote. It's ironic that there are now -- there's now a smaller percentage of the voters made up of parents with children than ever in American history because of the aging of our population. But at the same time, we've got the largest generation of students in public schools ever. More than 90 percent of America's children go to public schools, and the -- it's the largest number ever, this year, and they'll break the record next year and every year for ten years running. We've got to do something about this, and local -- it's not enough to leave it up to the local school districts. They're not able to do it, and our future depends upon it. Look, we're in an information age. Our economic future depends upon whether or not our children are going to get the kind of education that let's them go on to college, and again, I want to make it possible for all middle-class families to send their kids to college, and more Pell grants for those who are in the lower-income groups, also, and then I want to make sure that we have job training on top of that, and life-long learning, but it all starts with the public school teachers. My proposal gives $10,000 hiring bonuses for those teachers who are -- who get certified to teach in the areas where they're most needed. Now, accountability. We basically agree on accountability. My plan requires testing of all students. It also requires something that Governor Bush's plan doesn't; it requires testing of all new teachers, including in the subjects that they teach. We have to start treating teachers like the professionals that they are, and give them the respect and the kind of quality of life that will draw more people into teaching 'cause we need a lot more teachers. MR. LEHRER: Governor Bush, two minutes. GOV. BUSH: When you total up all the federal spending he wants to do, it's the largest increase in federal spending in years, and there's just not going to be enough money. I -- I have been a governor of a big state. I've made education my number one priority. That's what governors ought to do, they ought to say this is the most important thing we do as a state. The federal government puts about 6 percent of the money up; they put about, you know, 60 percent of the strings where you've got to fill out paperwork. I don't know if you have to be a paperwork filler-outer, but most of it's because of the federal government. What I want to do is to send flexibility and authority to the local folks so you can choose what to do with the money. One size does not fit all. I'd worry about federalizing Education, if I were you. I believe strongly that the federal government can help; they need to fund Head Start. We need to have accountability. The vice president's plan does not have annual accountability -- third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. We need the demand on results. I believe strongly in a teacher protection act, like I mentioned. I hear from teachers all the time about the lawsuits and the threats, respect in the classroom. Part of it's because you can't -- you can't control the classroom. You can't have a consequence for somebody without fear of getting sued under federal law. So I'm going to ask the Congress to pass a Teacher Protection Act. So I believe in flexibility, I believe in a national reading initiative for local districts to access, with K through 2 diagnostic testing, curriculum that works. Phonics works, by the way; it needs to be a part of our curriculum. There needs to be flexibility for teacher training and teacher hiring with federal money. The federal government can be a part, but -- but don't fall prey to all this stuff about money here and money there, because education is really funded at the local level; 94 percent comes from the local level.
	The growing government
	MR. LEHRER: Vice President Gore, is the governor right when he says that you're proposing the largest federal spending in years? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm so glad that I have a chance to knock that down. Look the problem is that under Governor Bush's plan, $1.6 trillion tax cut, mostly to the wealthy, under his own budget numbers, he proposes spending more money for a tax cut just for the wealthiest one percent than all of the new money that he budgets for education, health care and national defense combined. Now, under my plan, we will balance the budget every year. I'm not just saying this. I'm not just talking. I have helped to balance the budget for the first time in 30 years, pay down the debt. And, under my plan, in four years, as a percentage of our gross domestic product, federal spending will be the smallest that it has been in 50 years. One reason is, you know, the third biggest spending item in our budget is interest on the national debt? We get nothing for it. We keep the good faith and credit of the United States. I will pay down the debt every single year until it is eliminated, early in the next decade. That gets rid of the third biggest intrusion of the federal government in our economy. Now because the governor has all this money for a tax cut, mostly to the wealthy, there is no money left over, so schools get testing and lawsuit reform -- MR. LEHRER: All right. VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- and not much else. MR. LEHRER: Governor, the vice president says you're wrong. GOV. BUSH: Well, he's wrong. (Chuckles.) (laughter.) Just add up all the numbers; it's three times bigger than what President Clinton proposed. The Senate Budget Committee -- MR. LEHRER: Three times? Excuse me. Three times -- GOV. BUSH: Bigger than what President Clinton proposed -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: That's in an ad, Jim, that was knocked down by the journalists who analyzed the ad and said it was misleading GOV. BUSH: Wait a minute. May -- may I answer? MR. LEHRER: Go ahead. (Pause.) GOV. BUSH: My turn? MR. LEHRER: Yes, sir. (Laughter) GOV. BUSH: Forget the journalists. He proposed more than Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis combined. This is a big spender -- he is -- and he ought to be proud of it. It's part of his record. We just have a different philosophy. Let me talk about tax relief. If you pay taxes, you ought to get tax relief. The vice president believes that only the right people ought to get tax relief. I don't think that's the role of the president -- to pick -- "you're right, and you're not right." I think if you're going to have tax relief, everybody ought to get it. And therefore, wealthy people are going to get it. But the top one percent will end up paying one-third of the Taxes in America, and they get one-fifth of the benefits. And that's because we structured the plan so that 6 million additional American families pay no taxes If you're a family of four making $50,000 in Missouri, you get a 50 percent cut in your federal income taxes. What I've done is set priorities and funded them, and there's extra money. And I believe the people who pay the bills ought to -- ought to get some money back. It's a difference of opinion. He wants to grow the government, and I trust you with your own money. Well, let -- I wish we could spend an hour talking about trusting people because it's the right position to take. MR. LEHRER: Governor -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Can we extend our time? MR. LEHRER: Yes, hold on one sec here, though -- Governor, just to reverse the thing, what do you say specifically to what the vice president has said tonight -- he's said it many, many times -- that your tax cut benefits the top one percent of the wealthiest Americans, and you've heard what he said. GOV. BUSH: Of course it does. If you pay taxes, you're going to get a benefit. People who pay taxes will get tax relief. MR. LEHRER: All right, then what -- why shouldn't they? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: All right -- GOV. BUSH: Let me finish, please. Under my plan, if you make -- the top -- the wealthy people pay 62 percent of the taxes today. Afterwards they pay 64 percent. This is a fair plan. Do you know why? Because the tax code is unfair for people at the bottom end of the economic ladder. If you're a single mother making $22,000 a year today, and you're trying to raise two children, for every additional dollar you earn you pay a higher marginal rate on that dollar than someone making $200,000, and it's not right, so I want to do something about that. VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Yeah, look -- MR. LEHRER: All right, Vice President Gore? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Look, this isn't about Governor Bush, it's not about me. It is about you, and I want to come back to something I said before. If you want somebody who believes that we were better off eight years ago than we are now, and that we ought to go back to the kind of policies that we had back then, emphasizing tax cuts mainly for the wealthy, here is your man. If you want somebody who will fight for you and who will fight to have middle class tax cuts, then I am your man. I want to be. Now, I doubt anybody here makes more than $330,000 a year. I won't ask you, but if you do, you're in the top one percent. If you don't -- MR. LEHRER: It would be a violation of the rules. They couldn't -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: I'm not going to -- (chuckles) -- I'm not to ask -- (laughter) -- I'm not going to ask. But if everyone here in this audience was dead on in the middle of the middle class, then the tax cuts for every single one of you all added up would be less than the tax cut his plan would give to just one member of that top wealthiest one percent. Now, you judge for yourselves whether or not that's fair. MR. LEHRER: A quick -- and then we're moving on. GOV. BUSH: Good. Fifty million Americans get no tax relief under his plan -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: That's not right. GOV. BUSH: -- and you may not be one of them; you're just not one of the right people. And secondly, we've had enough fighting. It's time to unite. You talk about eight years -- in eight years they haven't gotten anything done on Medicare, on Social Security, a patients' bill of rights. MR. LEHRER: All right, we're going to -- GOV. BUSH: It's time get something done. MR. LEHRER: Hey, we're going to move on now -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: I've got to answer that, Jim. Medicare -- MR. LEHRER: What -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- I cast the tie-breaking vote to add 26 years -- MR. LEHRER: Mr. Vice President? VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- to the life of Medicare It was due to go bankrupt in 1999. And that 50 million figure, again -- MR. LEHRER: Vice President Gore -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- the newspapers, I said -- you said forget the journalists, but they are the keepers of the score card and whether or not you're using facts that aren't right -- MR. LEHRER: Okay -- VICE PRESIDENT GORE: -- and that fact is just not right.

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