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| FLORIDA RECOUNT | |
 November 8, 2000  |
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Miami attorney John Shubin discusses the recount of the 6 million Florida votes cast in the presidential election.
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GWEN
IFILL: They're counting six million votes in 67 counties. Joining us from
ground zero in Florida to discuss this remarkable election, and the recount:
John Shubin, a Miami attorney who specializes in election law.
JOHN SHUBIN: It's completely bizarre. I don't think there is any precedent for it, not only in Florida, but within the United States. And as being a citizen of Florida, resident of Florida, it's absolutely astounding the extent to which every vote counts. GWEN IFILL: You've been involved in other cases, election law cases. What, if anything, went wrong with the process? Is it the process in Florida or is it just -- I don't know, what is it?
GWEN IFILL: Well, at the very least, this was such a tight outcome that it triggered and automatic recount, no matter whether anybody made allegations of fraud or not. Walk us through the process. JOHN SHUBIN: Under Florida of law where a margin of victory is less than one half of one percent and where the losing candidate does not in any way waive their right to seek a recount there is a mandatory recount. And that is the process that the secretary of state is conducting as we speak. The recount will determine what the exact margin of victory was, either for Governor Bush or for Vice President Gore. At that point there is a number of overseas absentees voters where they know that there were absentee ballots requested and sent out. Obviously if the number of absentee ballots exceeds the margin of victory, they will wait for those ballots to come in and by procedure and by law they have 10 days to wait for those ballots to come in. |
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| Allegations of fraud | |||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: There seems to be there are three chunks happening. One is the mandatory recount, the other is the outstanding, no one knows how many, absentee ballots; and the third are these allegations in Palm Beach county of fraud and manipulation or whatever. I don't know if those allegations have even risen to actual charges. Tell us about the latter.
GWEN IFILL: So what happens? Do you go to court to appeal this? Is that how you get some sort of attention or challenge this outcome? JOHN SHUBIN: Absolutely, under Florida law there is a process -- two processes -- either an election protest or an election contest. They are essentially for all intents and purposes the same thing, and you bring an action in the circuit court, which is a state court, and you allege certainly improprieties. And the normal processes occur, albeit but on an expedited basis. It is my understanding that late this afternoon -- and I don't know if it's been verified -- that an action was filed on behalf of three Palm Beach voters seeking -- I don't know what remedy they were seeking -- but seeking to challenge the propriety of the butterfly ballot. GWEN IFILL: When folks challenge election outcomes, in your experience, how often does that result in a different outcome? JOHN SHUBIN: It really depends on the facts and circumstances. In one of the cases that I was involved in, the 1997 mayoral election in the city of Miami, it resulted in the appellate court throwing out all of the absentee ballots based on widespread allegations of fraud and misconduct and, in effect, it invalidated a runoff election and according to certain people, threw out… the baby with the bath water because of allegations of fraud and misconduct with respect to 200 or 300 absentee votes. The appellate court threw out 40,000 absentee votes resulting in a different outcome in the mayoral race, so really the remedy is designed -- the court will design a remedy to fit the injustice or the impropriety or irregularity that is alleged and proven. GWEN IFILL: Was it a good idea for Governor Jeb Bush, who is a member of this three-member election candidacy commission which oversees this recount, was it a good idea for him to recuse himself from this today? |
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| Jeb distances himself from the recount process | |||||||||||
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JOHN SHUBIN: I think it was a good idea, although the certification process is a somewhat technical process, I think that it's probably safe to say that it would be good for him to distance himself from any allegation, no matter how remote, that he could somehow influence this process. GWEN IFILL: It should be probably also be noted that Attorney General Butterworth was the chairman of Al Gore's campaign in the state of Florida. So now that everything is in place and the counting has begun, how long will all this take?
GWEN IFILL: In your experience has it ever taken that long? JOHN SHUBIN: In the city of Miami case it took close to four to five months before it went to trial and a little longer for an appellate decision. And that was done on an expedited basis. There were hundreds of witnesses, thousands of documents and a lot of allegations. Let me just keep it very clear, that to date I don't think anyone -- I certainly haven't and I don't think the media has heard any allegations from either side that would even come close to the allegations that were made in the city of Miami mayoral case. GWEN IFILL: Okay. Well, we have got some more time to wait before we know the outcome of this. Mr. Shubin, thank you very much. JOHN SHUBIN: Thank you so much. Good evening. |
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GWEN
IFILL: Mr. Shubin, it now comes down to 1,784 votes in Florida -- the
difference between Al Gore and George W. Bush and the presidency. How
bizarre is all this? 
JOHN
SHUBIN: You are dealing with a process that is susceptible to manipulation
and let me make it clear that I don't think there has been any hard
evidence that has been presented or uncovered that there has been any
external sources of fraud or manipulation with respect to this election.
But I'm certain that both sides are investigating every lead that they
receive and trying to determine whether or not there has been manipulation,
undue pressure put on voters or fraud or confusion with respect to the
ballot. 
JOHN
SHUBIN: In Palm Beach county there have been allegations made regarding
the way that the ballot was presented to the voter. It was known as
a butterfly ballot, which means in essence that the names of the candidates
rather than appearing in alphabetical order from top to bottom on one
column alternated from a left column to a right column. The allegation
is or the charge is that the ballot -- that there were people who believed
that they were voting for Vice President Gore when in fact they were
punching a hole for Pat Buchanan because of the alignment on the ballot.
JOHN
SHUBIN: Well, that is the really difficult problem in evaluating what
the outcome will be. Obviously the first question is what is the amount
of the recount? If there were more absentee ballots that were sent out,
as I earlier said, they'll have to wait till those overseas absentee
ballots come in. They will also have to wait between five and ten days
after the certification to see what challenges, what legal challenges
have been filed in the circuit court either by the candidates or by
registered voters who are operating completely independently of the
candidates in filing these lawsuits. Once those lawsuits are filed,
like any other lawsuit, it remains to be seen how long those lawsuits
will remain before the court before they are dismissed -- whether they
go to trial. In the event of a case if there are serious allegations
that are raised and a trial judge allows it is to go to trial it could
take three or four months to determine whether or not a portion of an
election result, a county, a precinct, et cetera, could be valid.