AGENDA 2000

August 26, 1999

Laurence White, senior pastor of Our Saviour Lutheran Church in Houston; Cecil Williams, minister at Glide Memorial United Methodist Church in San Francisco; Azizah Al-Hibri, professor at T.C. Williams School of Law at the University of Richmond; and Charles Kroloff, senior rabbi at Temple Emanuel in Westfield, New Jersey, and president of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, discuss the 2000 presidential election and what it should be about.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, another in our series of special emphasis discussions about the 2000 presidential election. As our regular viewers know, we've been asking a variety of individuals and groups what issues they want to hear the presidential candidates address. Elizabeth Farnsworth has tonight's discussion. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And tonight, we hear the views of a group of clergy and religious thinkers. Dr. Laurence White is senior pastor of Our Savior Lutheran Church in Houston and chairman of the Greater Houston Area Pastors Roundtable. The Reverend Cecil Williams is minister of Glide Memorial United Methodist Church in San Francisco. Azizah Al-Hibri is a professor at the T.C. Williams School of Law at the University of Richmond. She is founder and president of Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights and has written widely on Islam and law. Rabbi Charles Kroloff is senior rabbi at Temple Emanuel in Westfield, New Jersey, and president of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, representing 1,800 reform rabbis worldwide. And Father Jerry Pokorsky is rector of St. Peters Catholic Church in Washington, Virginia. Thank you all for being with us. Rabbi Kroloff, what would you like to hear candidates discuss and debate in the coming campaign? RABBI CHARLES KROLOFF, Temple Emanu-El: I would like to hear them talk about campaign finance reform. American citizens feel very distant from their government and special interests are making that happen. I would like to hear them speak about gun control, guns are out of control in this country, and I'm going to ask my congregation at the holidays in two weeks to vote only for candidates who take strong positions on gun control. I believe that hate crime is a central issue, and finally I want to hear some serious talk and creative talk about education. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Reverend White, what do you want to hear? DR. LAURENCE WHITE, Our Savior Lutheran Church: Well, I would be pleased to hear the candidates speak about any issue of substance. I think unfortunately Former President Gerald Ford was right a few weeks ago when he observed that the 2,000 presidential election was in danger of becoming an exercise in triviality in which candidates -- and these are President Ford's words -- candidates without ideas are hiring consultants without conviction to conduct campaigns without content at a time when our nation is facing a host of fundamental moral issues, to deal with the most basic issue of all, the issue of life as we go on in a 26 year abortion holocaust as the family unit among us is constantly under assault within our culture and the government has taken in so many ways a posture that is hostile to marriage and to families. I think the people are hungry for substantive discussion of those kinds of issues among us. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Reverend Williams, what do you want to hear? REV. CECIL WILLIAMS, Glide Memorial United Methodist Church: First of all, I would like the politicians to not be so political. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You are not asking a lot are you? REV. CECIL WILLIAMS: No, I'm not asking a lot, just don't be so political because what often happens is when you become so political, you lose a sense of yourself and you lose a sense of the community and you lose a sense of what we call the participatory democracy. I would like for politicians to become more human. I would like for them to certainly work harder when it comes to the glass ceiling for women. I would like for them to make sure they put on and the agenda violence because violence is critical and the interesting thing every time we talk about violence, we talk about the children. What about the adults? It's time for politicians to say look, we bear responsibility for this also, and finally, I would hope that we as a people would stop politicians saying the American people. You know, it's like they know the American people and I'm not sure they know what the American people really want. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Azizah Al-Hibri, what would you add or subtract to all this? AZIZAH AL-HIBRI, University of Richmond: Well, I feel that we need now candidates who are less interested on winning and more interested in service. I agree with a lot of the colleagues who spoke before me, that there are some serious issues in our society that need to be addressed and we are not hearing that. We are only hearing things that are calculated to get certain candidates into the White House. I want them, for example, to move away from the politics of destruction, from attacking privacy of various candidates. We are really scaring very good candidates from entering this kind of very uncivil atmosphere. I'm also concerned about our children. I'm concerned about our families. And I need to know what are the candidates going to do to promote certain values in society so as to reduce violence because guns alone do not produce violence, it is certain moral issues when they are lacking in society we might end up in violence. What are they doing to promote a society, which is civil, where people deal properly with each other and welcome diversity, instead of being threatened by it? And what are they going to do to protect the democratic process? I feel that our democratic process is under attack, and part of the reason I feel that way is the whole issue of campaign finance. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Father Pokorsky, do you agree with everybody so far that the really important issues aren't being addressed? FATHER JERRY POKORSKY, St. Peters Catholic Church: Well, I don't know if they have been addressed or not. I've been busy in my parish but I would like to see politicians to say yes when they mean yes and no what they mean no. So I would agree that we need men and women of principle. We need men and women of character and honesty. And I would be looking for politicians personally. I particularly like the idea of politicians not saying the American people want. I would like to see politicians to say this is what I believe and this is what I stand for and have the courage to say that at the end of the day, when the votes come in and perhaps they lose and they are asked the question why didn't they win, they would say, well, the people didn't want me. I think it takes a good deal of courage to say something like that. And, naturally in my position as a Catholic priest and also which I think extends overall I think that we ought to have a newfound respect for human life and human rights, including the rights of unborn babies. REV. CECIL WILLIAMS: Elizabeth, I get the feeling that most politicians feel that they can play the American people, the people of America short. So you know, their politics even come across as we've got the upper hand on you and, therefore, we can by you or we can so create those images in the media that we'll make you vote the way we want you to vote. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you think the source of that is, that they don't really respect, they don't know people -- they don't hear enough so they don't respect them? REV. CECIL WILLIAMS: I think that is part of it. But I think the other part has to do with the fact that in many ways they don't respect themselves. What am I really saying? I'm really saying that for a great sense of who we are in America, it seems to me that we could begin to move from denial so much. You know, we need to start being honest and truthful and not be in denial because denial takes us a different direction. Some folks will know what I'm talking about who are looking at the program today. What I think is critical, though if we begin to be honest, what we will have I think is a new direction in regards to all of the issues we're talking about. I certainly feel very strongly that we must look at abortion and support abortion. You know, that is personally for me, but I don't know how other people feel about it but I got a strong feeling about it and I think we should now have passion about what we're doing and certainly politicians should have passion that is meaningful. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Father Pokorsky, as a religious person, as a priest, how do you think the issues that you think are important or the candidates' way of approaching them in a way that you think is important can be made to happen? FATHER JERRY POKORSKY: Well, I think if a politician calls himself Catholic, for example, he should strive to live up to the Catholic faith, certainly espouse Catholic principles, certainly agree in substantive ways with -- in essential matters -- with the Catholic faith. Now this doesn't mean he is imposing any morality on anybody. It simply means if he calls himself a Catholic or a Lutheran or a Jew, that he is going to live up to the respect of faith traditions. I don't think it's too much to ask for, and if there is a choice, for example, in the right to life area for a candidate who is Catholic to say, for example, that he is pro-choice because he doesn't want to impose his morality on anybody, but he's personally opposed, that doesn't square with his faith. And so something has to give in these kind of situations. Again, principle is something I would be looking for and honesty and integrity. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes. Go ahead. AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: I find it very interesting that we're all stressing the concept of honesty and integrity in the political process. And it is interesting for me because if you look at our society, we find that we have put a lot of value on honesty and integrity in for example truth in advertising, and in the economic market. For example, if you are offering shares on the market, you are by law required to disclose information and it better be accurate and it better be complete. We have no analogous rules about the political process. We have not required our politicians to speak honestly, to speak with integrity. We just have left that totally unattended. I think we really need to put our values in the right order and worry about who is going to be the leader of our society. I think people get the leaders they deserve and we have to start acting like we deserve better leaders. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Reverend White - it's either you or - I can't tell - Rabbi Kroloff - that's trying to break in here. RABBI CHARLES KROLOFF: Rabbi Kroloff. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Go ahead. RABBI CHARLES KROLOFF: I wanted to refer to the Iowa caucus of last week. The best word that I can think of to describe it is carnival. And a carnival is exactly the opposite of the moral issues that my colleagues and I have been raising. I think it's time to move away from the carnival atmosphere, not to be satisfied with sound bytes and for the American people to speak up through their communities, through their clergy people and in so many other ways, say we want to be treated in a more serious way. The kinds of sound bytes and quick responses to the issues are no longer satisfactory to us -- that moral issues must be addressed and insist that candidates find means to do them in ways that they adhere and listen to the American people. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Reverend White do you agree with that? DR. LAURENCE WHITE: Absolutely. I think the Rabbi is exactly right. I think that we're dealing with a self-reinforcing negative process at this point. The establishments of both of our political parties are clearly driven by polls, power and the purse -- not principle. And that means that our candidates use split-the-difference platitudes that are vague so that they can send signals in every direction so as not to alienate anyone. And that is going to continue as long as the voters, as long as people of faith and conviction throughout our culture allow it to continue. We must put our faith into action, and participate in the democratic process. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And, Reverend Williams, what would you say to people who say my morality, my, the big ideas that you all are grappling with, really, I want to deal with between me and my minister, I don't want it to be part to the political process? How do you respond to that? REV. CECIL WILLIAMS: I would say that it's very important for people to come to understand that when they talk about whatever it is that they want to happen, it means that they then bear the responsibility of making it happen. And so, therefore, what I think is critical is we must make sure that our politicians again become states women and statesmen. What we should do I think is be -- it's now time for the people -- the people of this country to stand up and say, look, enough is enough; we're going to do something about the political process because we -- it's ours and if we don't do something about it, who is going to do something about it? So, the big question to me is: Are you going to participate in justice, are you going to participate in righteousness, are you going to take action that even the churches need to know and the synagogues and the temples and all of us need to know -- that it's time for us to stand up and make things, those things that have been against humanity and against certainly the people of this country; that what we must do is stand up and say no more. We're going to change it and we have the responsibility to make a change. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Azizah Al-hibri, how would you answer that question about people who just don't want to have the big religious or moral issues as part of the political process? AZIZAH AL-HIBRI: I think the colleague who preceded me was exactly right. If we're getting into details, there will be diversions among people on the details but we have to agree on a certain common denominator, or else we have no political or social fabric to build a country upon. If the issue is one of justice, of democracy, of preserving the rights of the various groups in this country, I don't think this is a matter really that is to be left to the home. This is part of our civic responsibility. And I think as a Muslim, as somebody who is in touch with Muslims around this country, I know that Muslims are very concerned about these various issues and would like to very much work through interfaith activities with other people of faith to promote the spiritual values in this society, values that really are the underpinnings for justice, for democracy, and for liberty. This is what our Constitution speaks about. We cannot stray away from that. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Rabbi Kroloff, your answer to that? RABBI CHARLES KROLOFF: I agree completely. And I would like to point out that all of us on the program right now share a common religious tradition. If you look at the five books of -- the first five books of the Bible which we call the Torah, it is also a basis for Koran, is also a basis for the New Testament. So here we have Christians, Jews and Muslims -- all of whom share a common religious tradition that has some very clear things to say about morality, about the protection of life, and that is our common basis to build upon. And I'm convinced that if we have those kinds of dialogues, that we can make those points very well to the politicians. And one of the ways of doing it is for each of us in our national groups and local groups to come together and as Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Muslims to make those points. And when they are heard from all of us, they will be heard. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And Dr. White, very briefly because I would like to get to Father Pokorsky too. DR. LAURENCE WHITE: I agree that the key here is voter involvement. The people must rise up. The problem with democracy, as John Adams once said, is that you get the kind of government you deserve. As long as we allow the politicians to evade the issues, they will continue to do so, because that's in their self-interest. We must act on our convictions; we must participate in terms of what we believe. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Okay. And, Father Pokorsky, very briefly, your final word. FATHER JERRY POKORSKY: G.K. Chesterton, the Catholic apologist, said the reason people get angry is because they never learned how to argue. I think we should learn how to argue well. Take positions and from the point of view of principle not get angry, simply argue things out and come up the conclusions. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Thank you all very much for being with us. MARGARET WARNER: Our agenda 2000 project continues. You can participate by visiting our Web site at: pbs.org/newshour and also by regular mail to: The NewsHour, Box 2626, Washington, D.C., 20013.