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| THE GERMAN PERSPECTIVE | |
 May 25, 1999 
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In recent days, the German government has reiterated its opposition to the use of ground forces in Kosovo. While in Washington for meetings, German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer discusses his country's view of the war with Margaret Warner.
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| MARGARET WARNER: Another major topic in Washington today was the plan to beef up NATO's current ground forces in Macedonia. Some forces have been pre-positioned there so they'll be ready to enforce a peace accord in Kosovo when and if it comes. That was one of the issues discussed when Secretary of State Albright and German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer met at the State Department today. They spoke to reporters afterwards. MARGARET WARNER: When I spoke with Foreign Minister Fischer earlier this morning, I asked him whether Germany could support Britain's suggestion that this NATO force might enter Kosovo even without a peace agreement once Serb forces had been sufficiently weakened.
MARGARET WARNER: But what if there is no political solution? JOSCHKA FISCHER: Then we'll have to make up our mind. I think this needs a new and strategic decision. But I'm very hopeful that based on the successes of the military campaign, we made substantial progress on the several diplomatic tracks. Now we must focus that on one track and this must lead to New York to a Security Council resolution. |  | ||||||||||||||||||
| The ground troops question. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JOSCHKA FISCHER: From a legal standpoint, this would be a quite different position for us and this would then have political discussion. We are now in a very I think serious discussion about the German role within the alliance, within Europe, also that we take part in military action the first time. We must very carefully go ahead step by step. I only tell you that a Chapter 7 resolution is a legal ground for such a debate. Without that we have legal restrictions, we have constitutional restrictions not only political ones. MARGARET WARNER: So the key really is here to get Russia on board with a plan that NATO accepts.
MARGARET WARNER: But right now, is Russia still saying that they won't, themselves agree to a Security Council resolution, unless they know that Belgrade also agrees? JOSCHKA FISCHER: But once again they have broader interests, deeper interests. They know very well that they cannot hand over their veto -- right of veto in the Security Council to Belgrade to Milosevic. Therefore, I think we must work together with Russia. And there is some substantial progress. We have now reached a door for a peaceful solution, but we did manage to open the door. And in the next days, I think it would be very, very important whether we can manage to get the door open or not. MARGARET WARNER: Do you expect China to be a problem in the Security Council? JOSCHKA FISCHER: A problem? MARGARET WARNER: An impediment. JOSCHKA FISCHER: A problem, yes, but not an obstacle or -- I don't think that a solution would be -- produce real problems with China, but it was a real disaster, bombing of the Chinese embassy brought China to the table. That's a real pity. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Preparing for war or for winter. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JOSCHKA FISCHER: First of all I think we all in the West know that there will be only one positive outcome, which we are fighting for: the return of all refugees. The return of all refugees means that after this horror of ethnic cleansing, the troops of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, including special forces and special police forces and paramilitaries must be withdrawn, and second, a robust force and robust means a NATO core, otherwise the refugees won't go back. And without return of the refugees, we will have a long lasting and I think very dangerous risk for stability and peace in the whole region. So we are very united on this position.
MARGARET WARNER: So are you saying that even after June if there is no agreement, that the issue of ground troops -- a ground invasion might be on the table? JOSCHKA FISCHER: But I think there is a real possibility to get an agreement because the military campaign is working on the one hand and on the other hand, we are very active on the diplomatic track. So, I'm very hopeful that we can achieve positive diplomatic result. That's why I'm here in Washington. MARGARET WARNER: How much pressure is your government under? Help Americans understand briefly the kind of pressure your government is under on this question of the use of ground troops. JOSCHKA FISCHER: On the one hand --
JOSCHKA FISCHER: If you were to ask me a half year ago whether we would politically survive a bombing campaign of 60 days, I would say "never." We are now very united not only in Germany, but also in the alliance. I think this is a very positive result. On the other side, I mentioned it before, you must understand that in Germany, there is a trauma of the two world wars and especially in the older generation. Germany, for example, accepted much more refugees than all other countries. Why? Because many of us, my family is for 200 years lived in Budapest. We are ethnic Germans from Budapest. After-- in 1946, we were sent back like hundreds of thousands of other Germans to Germany after 200 years. So the experience to be displaced persons or refugees is very substantial in our people. So I mention that, that I think tradition and historical experiences, historical fears are very important. And for us now we have to find our role. And this is, on the military level, a very difficult one, but we are taking part in the air campaign. We have ships in the Adriatic. And we will, nevertheless we can take part or not, if there is such a decision, support our allies. There is no question about that. MARGARET WARNER: What do you say to your fellow green party members and other people of your generation. You were all anti-war activists together, peace activists together in Germany and Europe. What do you say to them now to say why Germany must step up militarily to defeat Milosevic's plans in Kosovo?
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| The message to Milosevic. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| MARGARET WARNER: Finally, you had a meeting with Milosevic earlier this year I think just in March. JOSCHKA FISCHER: Yeah. MARGARET WARNER: What did you-- JOSCHKA FISCHER: I think two weeks before the whole mess started, definitely. MARGARET WARNER: Apparently you gave him a certain warning. What did you tell him?
MARGARET WARNER: You also warned him that his dream of a greater Serbia was doomed to fail. JOSCHKA FISCHER: Yeah. Well, we made the experience. At the moment when I hear a greater whatever you may -- a greater Serbia, greater Germany, whatever, Mr. Hitler was fighting for a greater Germany, huh? This is, for me, the typical signal that this is an aggressive nationalism. If somebody is fighting for a greater somewhat, it means another people had to be killed or made running or whatever. It means aggression. "A greater nationalism." That is the real problem. And you have the greater Albania, you have the greater Bulgaria, you have the -- the Balkans is full of greaters and this means bloodshed, nothing else. MARGARET WARNER: Thank you Mr. Minister, very much. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MADELEINE
ALBRIGHT: Today NATO completed its review of updated planning for implementing
the peace when our conditions are met. NATO's plan envisions an international
security force deployed in Kosovo with a mission to deter renewed hostilities
and establish the security necessary for the refugees to return. Given the new
circumstances, including the enormous humanitarian crisis caused by Milosevic,
the international force will be larger than originally foreseen. The headquarters
and leading elements are already in the region, where they are helping to relieve
the refugee crisis. NATO's military authorities will now be considering what additional
forces are required so that the force can deploy rapidly and effectively into
Kosovo once Milosevic accepts our conditions and begins to withdraw his forces.
JOSCHKA
FISCHER, German Foreign Minister: In the German parliament, there is no majority
for such a step as you describe and the British are enforcing. No part in the
German government especially not the conservatives are supporting that. So we
would have a split parliament or a majority against us. And there are constitutional
restraints and so we would be out at that moment, but I think it's much more important
now to work on the political solution based on the military successes of the military
campaign. 
MARGARET
WARNER: Now as I'm sure you're aware in the United States last week, there was
a lot of publicity when your Chancellor Schroeder said that Germany was -- considered
ground troops unthinkable, would block any move to use ground troops in a combat
way. But now, are you saying if there were a Security Council resolution that
was approved, say telling Milosevic he had to get out and he refused, then Germany
might feel differently about the use of combat ground troops?
JOSCHKA
FISCHER: Yes. 
MARGARET
WARNER: As you know, General Clark and the military planners are stay saying that
if there is no diplomatic breakthrough in the next three weeks or so, by mid-June,
that they either have to start planning for a ground invasion or be prepared that
we have -- that the whole West has to be prepared to take care of the ethnic Albanians
through the winter. Do you see that same kind of a deadline? And if it came to
that, then what? 
Democracies
must discuss their different problems. We have different problems, different discussions
in Britain and the United States, France, Italy, Germany. This is, I think, constitutional
factor of democracy, the public opinion. But in the strategic aim, we are very
united and committed to fight that through to a positive outcome. If we are not
reaching a political solution in June, then we will have a new situation and a
new discussion and then we will need a new strategic decision after that discussion,
not before. 
MARGARET
WARNER: You are, just to explain, you are the leading figure from the green party,
the environmentalists, some would say pacifist green party in this coalition government.
JOSCHKA
FISCHER: I was a peace activist against colonial wars. But this is not a colonial
war I think. This is an aggressive confrontation against aggressive nationalism.
In the 30's, Milosevic would fit -- would have fitted wonderful in the political
landscape of a fascist Europe and fascist means not only the extreme -- most extreme
form of fascism of the Nazis. Mussolini, Franco and all the others. It's an aggressive
nationalism and is believing in the right of its own people to attack, to fight
for territory for whatever and to suppress others, the Balkans is full of this
heritage. They all have their maps in their pockets. And these maps mean bloodshed
and means real disaster. And Milosevic is acting in that way. And we cannot accept
it. This would mean that Europe, the principals of Europe, of unification would
be, I think, attacked and if Milosevic will win, others will follow in the Balkans
and then we will have a real security problem. Therefore, he must be stopped.
JOSCHKA
FISCHER: I think I told him strategically you're a fool. Tactically you are very
clever but strategically you will -- you will not win. 
