RUSSIA'S ALEXANDER LEBED NOVEMBER 22, 1996 TRANSCRIPT

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In a Newsmaker interview, Russia's former national security chief, Alexander Lebed, says Boris Yeltsin remains a sick man and is not in control of the country. Lebed claims Yeltsin's chief of staff Anatoly Chubais is actually running Russia, and that the nation is definately not a democracy .

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A RealAudio version of this NewsHour segment is available. NewsHour Links: To learn more about Alexander Lebed and Russian politics send questions to our Russia correspondent Simon Marks. November 5, 1996: A report on the apparently successful heart bypass operation on Russian President Yeltsin. October 17, 1996: A background report and panel discussion on Alexander Lebed's dismissal as National Security Chief. October 3, 1996: An interview with Michael DeBakey, Boris Yeltsin's American surgeon, prior to the heart bypass operation. August 21, 1996: A report on the Chechen cease fire brokered by Alexander Lebed. July 4, 1996: A Simon Marks report on Boris Yeltsin's victory in the Presidential runoff election. July 4, 1996: A panel of Russia experts discussthe implications of Boris Yeltsin's victory. June 18, 1996: Simon Marks fielded your questions about the Russian elections. June 17, 1996: A Simon Marks backgrounder and a Warren Christopher interview about Boris Yeltsin's first round election victory. May 24, 1996: A Simon Marks interview with the Russian Communist Party leader Gennady Zyuganov. Complete NewsHour coverage of events in Russia. OUTSIDE LINKS Russia Today is a very good English language news source. The Alexander Lebed Fan Club

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Alexander Lebed has long been known in Russian military and political circles. He commanded troops in the ethnic struggle in Maldova and, before that, in the Afghan War of the 1980's. But he burst on the international scene with his dramatic run for the presidency this spring. Projecting a decisive and incorruptible image, Lebed ran third in the first round of elections, behind President Yeltsin and the Communist Gennady Zuyganov.

DMITRY TRENIN, Carnegie Endowment: It's his image. Politics in Russia these days are not so much about ideology; they're not about party programs. They are about personalities. And the personality of General Lebed just stands out.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: It stands out partly because of Lebed's colorful history. He's an ex-boxer--you can see it in his face--and he's a former parachutist whose personal courage and scrappiness became the stuff of legend. In the presidential runoff, Lebed threw his support to Yeltsin, and a good number of his backers followed his lead. His reward was to be named secretary of the National Security Council, with undefined responsibilities for both the military and police.

PRESIDENT BORIS YELTSIN, Russia: (speaking through interpreter) This is not just an appointment. It's the coming together of two politicians, the joining of two programs. General Lebed's program will enhance that of the President of Russia.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Lebed tackled Moscow's extensive crime problems with a series of television ads.

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED, Former National Security Chief, Russia: (speaking through interpreter) He who shoots first laughs last. I am inviting Russians to join a more orderly society. Those who disagree will have to deal with the security forces.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The job clearly put him in the running as heir apparent to a visibly ailing President Yeltsin who had finished the presidential campaign in a burst of energy but then dropped out of sight. Lebed quickly jumped in to several controversies. Unlike others in Moscow, he told western leaders that Russia could live with an expansion of NATO to such countries as Poland. And to the chagrine of many of his Moscow opponents, Lebed negotiated a cease-fire in the war against rebels in Chechnya. The fighting, which had cost tens of thousands of lives, stopped, and negotiations are now underway for elections. But instead of winning praise, Lebed's peace initiatives led to charges that he was too sympathetic to the Chechens.

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Those who are against me signing this can argue with the President and with God. We're putting an end to this war.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: These moves and Lebed's request for more powers quickly led to confrontation with other Kremlin leaders, especially Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin and Yeltsin aide Anatoly Chubais. On October 17th, amid rumors and charges and counter-charges of coup plotting, the ax fell on Lebed. A shaky Yeltsin appeared on television to announce the firing of his once key aide. Lebed denied he was planning a coup, and apparently, many Russians believed him. Polls this month show he has displaced Yeltsin as the most trusted politician in the country.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: General Lebed made his first trip to the United States this week. He's here for a series of speeches. I spoke with him this morning.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: General Lebed, thank you very much for being with us, and welcome to the United States.

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED. Former National Security Chief, Russia: (speaking through interpreter) Thank you.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yesterday, a high American CIA agent was indicted for selling secrets to Russia. The fact that Russia is spying on us and we are spying on Russia, what does this say about the current state of U.S.-Russian relations?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) These are byproducts of the Cold War, just another splash--American special services got Galkin. Ours got your man. I think it'll be over shortly. This is the way they are--an eye for an eye--tit for tat. You know, I think we all should be exhausted after that.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: President Yeltsin reportedly left the hospital today. Do you think that he will become strong enough to be a full-time president and take his full powers?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Well, it is beyond my competence to answer. It's a question to the doctors. According to the information we have, it was a very successful operation.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Do you think there's a chance that there will have to be elections before the year 2000, which is when elections are scheduled? Do you think because of his health, there may be elections earlier?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) I do not exclude such a possibility, such an outcome.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And you are now preparing to run in those elections. Tell us something about what you're doing to prepare.

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) You know, I haven't wished any evil things to anyone for a long time, so I am preparing myself to run for the year 2000, so I'm doing some party build-up, and I intend to create a party, a Republican Party in the likeness of the Republican Party of the United States. I study the investment climate in a number of regions. Russia is in a dangerous situation because hope has almost died, and the enthusiasm that we had in 1991, it was great at that time. Now it's virtually nonexistent.

There's a great difference between what people had expected and what the government is doing now. Democratic transformations and reforms conducted in the country have made about 90 percent of the population poorer, less happy. And to my deepest regret, the word "democracy" in Russia is almost a swear word, and that's a great pity. Democracy has nothing to do with it; it's just that in Russia we have a mock-up, a pseudo democracy or imitation of democracy. But people who do not know the way it actually looks believe this falsification to be an original, and naturally are very dissatisfied with it, and with the government, so we should work at it.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Why has this happened? Why has false democracy, in your words, come about, and why have people lost hope? What went wrong?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Well, one should never be in a haste. One shouldn't really. Haste makes waste. We should have understood that in-between the totalitarian regime and a democratic regime, there is a transitional period, and that transitional period should have been past. And measures should have been taken to acquaint people with the ABC's of the market economy. Laws should have been created which would be good for the people, and an environment where it would be beneficial and profitable to comply with the laws.

And what happened in Russia was people went to bed in 1991 under totalitarianism, and when they woke up, it was declared that it is a democracy. Things are not done overnight, and again, there is another good reason--people who used to run the country under the Soviet power as long as it was profitable for them were calling themselves Communists; then they repainted themselves, they changed their colors, and began to call themselves democrats. Tomorrow, they'll call themselves other names, but they're still the same. The billboard, the label is different but the essence is still old.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Let me interrupt one minute. So, are you saying that there's still basically a system not unlike the old system, even though it calls itself democratic?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Yes, yes. There is an old system, the same people who were keeping nose to the wind threw out their communist attire and calling themselves democrats. Now we need new people with new approach, new mentality, with new education, new qualities. We have such people, and they are growing in numbers.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: In recent months--I'd like to know how bad you think the situation is--in recent months you've said that--I believe you said, if I'm not mistaken, that Russia's on the edge of the abyss. What did you mean by that? How bad is the situation now?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) It is a pretty bad situation. The army--the economy have collapsed--army because of that is highly politicized, it is in a condition very much like condition before the mutiny. The President is sick; he is not controlling the country. Someone is controlling the country on behalf of the President and is doing it in a very stupid way.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Who is that, by the way?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Head of administration, Mr. Chubais. Look, there is a president elected by the people; there is a prime minister approved by the state duma in a constitutional, legitimate manner; and there is bureaucrat, never elected, he is just appointed by the President, and all of a sudden, it turns out that this bureaucrat has pushed aside the prime minister that he is controlling on behalf--running the country on behalf of the President, and he is distributing documents with the facsimile signature of the President. It is abnormal. It is anti-constitutional.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Do you believe this is who fired you, Mr. Chubais, and not really President Yeltsin? Do you think that Chubais was behind your firing?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Absolutely.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Do you think there's a chance that the President will call you back into the National Security Council?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) Well, hard to tell whether it will concern the Security Council, but he will call me back, I am positive. I can untie, or I can cut the knots.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: How would you fix what's wrong, either if you're called back in the government, or if you become president in the year 2000?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) First, we need to stop people from dying out. It's the first thing to do. We should deal with ecology, because 1/3 of the territory of Russia is ecological disaster. The last four years, one million people more die than get born, and many who get born are not very healthy either. Now, the new schoolchildren--out of a hundred only ten are healthy, so we should start with healthy generation.

If people are healthy, they'll be able to do everything. Secondly, our legal field is not covered. We have a very original market that has taken shape in Russia, a market of bribery. We have 25 million strong army of bureaucrats, and we have a system where you can't avoid the bureaucrats, and each one of them is asking for money. You see, we have things to work over in Russia, I assure you.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The difficulties with the army, an army that's not being paid with I think 27,000 nuclear warheads, is this a recipe for disaster?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) You see, it may turn out--it may result in nuclear terrorism. And you can imagine the psychological condition of the people who go on combat patrols, their families without means of existing, it's hard to imagine, but there is a temptation to sell something, so people sell things, and the scale of sales of ammunition material, weapons is very great, and the structures which--involved in that, they are perfecting their work all the time, and there are attempts to get hold of fusion materials and nuclear materials, and if we don't stop this process, we can face nuclear terrorism, nuclear blackmail, you name it.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So you have evidence that there have been attempts to buy nuclear weapons, or nuclear material? And do you have any evidence that any has been sold?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) I do not have evidence, and according to my information, it has not happened, thank God, but hypothetically, it is possible. It is precisely the case when there should be a system--a mistake-proof system--a nuclear arsenal should be kept in such a way that no one, under any condition, not for any money, would be able to purchase them in an unauthorized way.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you think about the NATO move to expand into the formerly Warsaw Pact countries like Poland?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) I believe that NATO and the very name, the very abbreviation, NATO, is also a fragment of the Cold War. The Cold War is over. The world has changed radically. Certain major fragments have remained, and NATO is one of them. We need to give a clear answer: Now what are we doing?

We shall either look after the ambitions of the victors, furthering NATO to the East, or we shall build a long-term, reliable system of European security. And when we give a positive answer to this question that we are going to build a security system, then we should follow the path of changing the functions of this organization. This is a good organization, with an excellent mechanism, working perfectly, but the old functions are obsolete, so new functions should come, like combating terrorism, combating crime, and having changed the functions, the label should be changed as well. Let us remove the word NATO so--it is an irritating name for many people--find another.

And Russia, the Baltic states, Hungary, all of them should enter this, but on another basis. A pyramid of common security system should be built and no sharp movements should be made--anyway no one should be defeated to the very end; you should not put a cat into a tight corner because it'll turn into a tiger.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So if NATO doesn't change its role, doesn't change its name, and absorb some of the former Warsaw Pact countries, would you oppose that?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) No, I'm not going to have a hysterical fit. I'm deeply convinced that sooner or later, all the same, everybody will come to the understanding that a security system has to be built and not to play games in the best traditions of the Cold War, so it is a matter of time. Either we will have it either in three months or in three years--that is the only issue--the issue of time.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: It appears from the recent news reports that what you--the settlement that you made in Chechnya is holding. There seem to be negotiations that are going ahead for elections for January. Is that right? Do you think that peace will hold?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) 99 percent I'm convinced. I've managed to break the backbone of the war, and any person who would try to resurrect it at the very least it will be a political corpse, so it's wonderful that there are negotiations there because it was not a war--it was a mass, beastly murder of people. So I stopped this crime.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: How did you do it? When nobody else could do it, how did you stop it?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) You know, I've had too much war. I know the essence--I know the internal essence of warring parties, and I can find the string one should play. They understand me; I understand them. We simply reached agreement like we reached agreement in Moldova in ‘92, and within 10 days I stopped war there. I just know how to talk, who to talk to, and I always appear where people do not expect me. That gives people a shock, and that makes people respect me. I'm an airborne general.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And one last question before we finish. You are a contradictory figure, in some ways, to Americans because you have been very much a military man. And you have said--you have called yourself a semi-democrat, for example, and yet, in recent months, you've also spoken out very strongly in favor of democracy, and you are waiting till the year 2000 to run for the President. How would you describe yourself to Americans? How would you describe your politics?

GENERAL ALEXANDER LEBED: (speaking through interpreter) A policy of national pragmatism, I would call it that name. Okay. Let's be clear. I am for democracy, but I believe that it's a long, hard work building a democratic society. A lot has to be done. One cannot declare democracy--as of today, we shall have democracy, and done. What is being done in our country doesn't match democracy.

On the one hand, I want democracy to reign in my country, and I would contribute to this process the best I can. On the other hand, what is being done now doesn't look like democracy at all. It is a knock-off. It's imitation, so there is schizophrenia. Yes, we want a thing called democracy, but I just honestly said if what is happening in our country is democracy, then I'm against it. It should be dealt in an entirely different way--entirely different way.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Well, General Lebed, thank you very much for being with us.

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