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| MISSING DATA | |
 June 13, 2000  |
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Two hard drives containing classified nuclear data disappeared from Los Alamos Nuclear Laboratory. Margaret Warner leads a discussion with DOE director of counter-intelligence and the L.A.Times national security correspondent on this possible second breach in a year.
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MARGARET WARNER: And now to Edward Curran, chief of counter-intelligence at the Department of Energy. So, Mr. Curran, is Congressman Stupak right? I mean, does his local library have better procedures for tracking Winnie the Pooh than you have for knowing who is taking sensitive material in and out of these labs? |
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| Access at Los Alamos | ||||||||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: And these are the people who have what is called unescorted access, they can go in and out as they wish? EDWARD CURRAN: There is a certain number of the team, I believe it's around 26, that have unescorted access. These are scientists who work in the X Division process itself who need access to the vault. The other members of the team have to be taken into the vault before they go in. The point being is that this equipment has to be available to them immediately if a situation occurred. MARGARET WARNER: Now, what about the point that the Congressman raised in that General Habiger confirmed ore explained. Why is there no procedure for signing stuff in and out or for recording who has gone in and out and when?
MARGARET WARNER: But I mean, what was the reason for the procedure? I don't want to put words in your mouth. But why wouldn't there be a sign in, sign out? EDWARD CURRAN: Because these people have to have direct access. I mean,
we're looking at that separately now. The first priority we have is
to find these missing disks. The second priority, which the Secretary
has, is to find accountability. What procedures were in place that were
not followed; what procedures need to be in place. For |
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| Using the missing data | ||||||||||||||||||||
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EDWARD CURRAN: We're not ruling out espionage. You have to take one course or another at this point. What I'm saying is you have to look at the most obvious to begin with. That is the forest fire that had a tremendous impact on the people -- and the training exercise before that. You look at the people who had access to this information, which is being done now who had the last possession of it - who updated it the last time - and from there we're going to go on. That's being done as we speak. MARGARET WARNER: Let me ask and Bob Drogin described what was on these drives, but of what interest would it be or would it be -- let me repeat the question. Of what use would it be say to a foreign power or a terrorist to have these drives? EDWARD CURRAN: There is nobody that is minimizing the information. MARGARET WARNER: I'm asking a question.
MARGARET WARNER: One of your colleagues who was testifying today said to a congressman -- he was asked how usable is the data on these -- and he was asked -- is it plug and play -- and General Habiger said, yes. What does that mean? EDWARD CURRAN: That means that the drives - that the information contained on these drives could be used in another computer; you could take these drives out and plug them into another computer. MARGARET WARNER: You wouldn't need all these special codes to get to the information. EDWARD CURRAN: Correct. MARGARET WARNER: And so on. What have you all been told -- and I know it's early in your investigation -- but I'm just trying to understand this -- about why there was this delay? There was one suggestion again at the hearing that the people who first discovered it - and saying -- were kind of scrambling, hoping they could find it themselves and never have to get into telling higher ups. Do you -- |
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| Security protocols at Los Alamos | ||||||||||||||||||||
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EDWARD CURRAN: Whatever reason there is, it's inexcusable. The minute
those tapes or drives were found MARGARET WARNER: Let me just go back to the possibility of them being lost. So you're saying there are scenarios under which one of these people might legitimately take these out? EDWARD CURRAN: Absolutely. MARGARET WARNER: And then, what, maybe forget they had or -- EDWARD CURRAN: Well, again - and I don't like to speculate on what it is, but it was -- it's not unusual for members of this team to take these drives out and update them and change the information on them. It also is not unusual for members of this team to have the exercises which we did have in Livermore a week before the fire and use these tapes and send them out. So, what we're trying to determine were they in Livermore, were they
back in Sandia -- but because the laboratory was closed down the next
day, that investigation was not MARGARET WARNER: And then finally, where are you in the sort of what I might call the "who done it" phase of the investigation in terms of how many people have been interviewed and so on? EDWARD CURRAN: I don't want to go into expect details. When DOE was notified, we immediately brought in the FBI. The FBI was extremely cooperative with us; they provided us all the resources. It was a joint effort as of two days after we started this thing. We are interviewing all the employees -- the employees that have access to this information, polygraphs are going to be initiated very soon here -- and hopefully by the end of the week we'll have a better direction of where we're going on this. I've never ruled out espionage. All I'm saying is you have to look at the most obvious leaks first. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Thanks, Mr. Edward Curran and good luck. |
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EDWARD
CURRAN: I wouldn't agree with the description as it was just cited.
I think Mr. Grogan in his opening statement indicated this vault where
these computers are maintained is within an X Division. There is a whole
security process that you need to go through to get access to these.
There is a -- in the vault sits a person. The point is that 26 people
of this NEST team that has to respond or be able to or capable of responding
to any possible nuclear emergency that happens in the United States
or otherwise -- they have to have the data that is available to them
to address that issue, to be able to dismantle a nuclear weapon or terrorist
act -- whatever. You have so many number of people who have gone through
background investigations, all kinds of testing, that have access to
this type of material. 
EDWARD
CURRAN: Well, the Secretary of Energy is obviously very upset with this
too and I think the word is "enraged." We have put through
many procedures during the past year and a half prior to Wen Ho Lee
and after Wen Ho Lee. The first priority we have right now is try to
find or locate these disks. 
instance,
there is a procedure in place that we are to be notified within eight
hours after a security incident. Obviously we weren't notified. That
needs to be addressed. Our main concern working with the FBI at this
point is to find out where these disks are. You have two major events
that occurred around this missing disk time. You have the fire, which
was a catastrophic event in Los Alamos, not only to the surroundings
buildings but the people involved, the town was evacuated -- and you
also had a training exercise that took place just a week before this
with the NEST team. What we need do to determine first of all is --
is it missing or lost and that's what we're trying to do as of right
now - the accountability is going to go. 
MARGARET
WARNER: Let's look at the stolen or lost, because that's another big
issue, obviously. And you were quoted by the Congressman as being quoted
in the Times saying you didn't have any evidence or you didn't
feel there was evidence yet that it was espionage. Why do you come down
on that side versus the fact that it might be -- 
EDWARD
CURRAN: We're asking right now is for the -- we have asked the intelligence
community to answer that question for us, if a particular country or
a particular individual or terrorist group received this information
what impact, what damage can that do. This is being done as we speak
now right now. But our first review is to find these tapes. 
missing,
they are required to have reported that to us immediately. That was
not done. The Secretary is looking into that; he's appointed former
Senator Baker and Hamilton to do a complete administrative review of
this. That is a significant point that we need to address. Why was there
this delay in reporting this very sensitive and very legitimate problem
to DOE?
done.
We're saying it should have been done at that time, and we should have
been notified. The reason that the -- they identified it or positively
identified the fact they were missing on April 7 is the fact they went
in to the vault to remove them -- to put them in Sandia so if an emergency
did occur, they would have access to it, because once that lab closed,
you could not get back in there. All these issues are being addressed
right now. We are very concerned; the Secretary is obviously very upset
- with all the procedures we've put in placed during the past year and
a half. And, as he says, there is going to be accountability for this.