Online NewsHour: Aging Discussion -- March 25, 1997

NEVER TOO OLD

MARCH 25, 1997

TRANSCRIPT

Today former President George Bush fulfilled a promise he made to himself more than fifty years ago to skydive. Bush's feat, at the age of 72, is yet one example of men and women staying active longer. Jim Lehrer leads a discussion on the changing mindset of people in their golden years.

A RealAudio version of this segment is available.
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JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, watch this:
(Footage of Former President George Bush Parachuting out of an Airplane)
JIM LEHRER: Why did George Bush, this 72-year-old man, this former President of the United States, do that today? And what, if anything, does it say to the rest of us who may be approaching such an age and entertaining such ideas?
Dr. Robert Butler directs the International Longevity Center at the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in New York. Judith Viorst is a poet and writer. Among her books: Forever 50 and Other Negotiations.
Jack Rosenthal is editor of the New York Times Sunday Magazine, which recently published an issue titled Funny, We Don't Feel Old.
Robert Kotlowitz is a novelist whose exchange of letters with his son about aging was in that issue. He's also the author of Before Their Time, a just-published memoir of his experiences as an infantryman in World War II.
And Guy Whidden is a retired teacher who jumped from airplanes as a paratrooper in World War II and did it again during the Normandy Re-enactment in 1994.
Mr. Whidden, first, what it's like to do what he did today, to jump out of an airplane?
GUY WHIDDEN, Former World War II Paratrooper: Well, it's no real problem getting out of the plane. I think what he's thinking about is how is that landing going to be.
JIM LEHRER: Yeah.
GUY WHIDDEN: That's the tough part.
JIM LEHRER: Is there a thrill to it? Is there something special to that, that is different from any other experience? For those of us who haven't done it, explain to us what it is.
GUY WHIDDEN: Well, it is certainly different. It's a beautiful experience to have done it, particularly at a height of 12,000 feet like Mr. Bush did. In combat, my jump in Normandy was at 300 feet, a little over 300 feet, not much time to think about it.
JIM LEHRER: Do you understand why he would want to do that, why he did that today?
GUY WHIDDEN: I can pretty understand how he would want to do it. I wanted to do it one more time, and he wanted to do it one more time. His first experience wasn't a real happy one, and the same case with our jump in Normandy.
JIM LEHRER: You--and so that's why you did it again in 19--you essentially did the same--you're the same age as George Bush, right?
GUY WHIDDEN: Seventy-three.
JIM LEHRER: Yeah. And he's 72. So you did it two or three years ago in Normandy for the same reason he did it, and kind of wanted to complete the circle.
Jack Rosenthal, what do you think about what George Bush did today?
JACK ROSENTHAL, New York Times: (New York) I think it's a lively symbol of a transformation in American life that most of us don't recognize well enough. We all think of old age in a negative sense. And there's a huge time lag, because as the New York Times Magazine special issue tried to demonstrate, America has discovered a new stage of life between the ages of say 65 and 85 for all the people who still need help, are dependent, who deserve our prayers and our assistance. Most older Americans are now healthy. They have at least some income, and for many of them this is the time of their lives.
JIM LEHRER: And so if anybody had any doubts about it, look at George Bush, right?
JACK ROSENTHAL: Absolutely right.
JIM LEHRER: Bob Kotlowitz, what do you think about what the former President did today?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ, Writer: (New York) I have several thoughts, Jim. I think that considering the fact that parachutes were developed to save human lives and not to be a toy, I thought it was a kind of feckless act to perform today. And why all the publicity? I mean, if he's living out a young man's fantasy, why not just do it alone and be quiet about it?
JIM LEHRER: Well, but what about the point that somebody might make to you, Mr. Kotlowitz, that Bush waited 53 years to complete the circle, just like you waited say 50 years to write your memoir of your World War II experience? Do you see any similarities at all?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: No. I was not living out any childhood dream when I wrote my memoirs. I really was trying to get rid of a load of material and information that I've been carrying around for a long time. And I don't see any parallels between the parachute jump and writing memoirs.
JIM LEHRER: Judith Viorst, a feckless exercise that the President did today?
JUDITH VIORST, Poet: I am a big admirer of Mr. Kotlowitz, so it pains me to passionately disagree with him. I think that part of growing older is a sober sensible assessment of your limitations of what you can and can't do, making peace with your losses, and then there's got to be a chunk left for play and for having a wonderful time, fulfilling some of your dreams, and for being totally frisky. This is I think George Bush's finest moment.
JIM LEHRER: George Bush's finest moment, Dr. Butler?
DR. ROBERT BUTLER, Mt. Sinai School of Medicine: Well, I think too it's a vivid metaphor of the revolution in longevity we're experiencing in this century. We've gained 28 years of life expectancy since 1900, and with it, happily, a declining disability rate. People are more vigorous and healthy. If he were 29, we'd think nothing of it. And, in fact, people of all ages are doing things like this.
JIM LEHRER: We wouldn't be talking about it tonight if he was 21, no matter who--whether he'd been a former President or not.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: What I'm saying is that people of all ages--in fact, something like $100 billion a year is spent in what is called extreme sports and extreme activities with people of all ages. And there are many others that are his age that are doing equally remarkable things, going down hills and Alps and going around the world on airplanes and doing all sorts of things, flying those airplanes. So that people are really increasingly active in the later years.
JIM LEHRER: Well, Mr. Whidden, when you had to make the decision to do it again in 1994, and you weren't the only one who did it--there were how many--there--
GUY WHIDDEN: There were 41 of us.
JIM LEHRER: Forty-one of you who did that. Did you think, hey, wait a minute, I'm 71 years old, I probably shouldn't be doing something like this? What went through your mind in terms of how old you were, the connection between your age and your decision to do it?
GUY WHIDDEN: I had no problem with it because I had kept myself in good shape throughout the years, and I think if I had not kept myself in shape, I might have had second thoughts about it.
JIM LEHRER: And that bears out your theory, does it not, Jack Rosenthal?
JACK ROSENTHAL: Absolutely. This whole idea of acting your age when you get to a certain age, you are whatever age you want to act, and if people want to go ice skating or skiing at age 80 and 90, more power to them.
JIM LEHRER: Judith Viorst, what George Bush did today and what Mr. Whidden did, these are all very male things. What is--are there female counterparts to this kind of thing?
JUDITH VIORST: Well, I think that there's a lot of physical stuff going on with women now. I'm starting to feel left out of this whole crowd of women that are doing weightlifting and walking around long past an age when I thought it was possible in sleeveless dresses with rippling muscles from all their workout activity. So I certainly think they are taking on a new delight in their body. They're not saying, well, everything is moving toward the floor--you know, bodies don't count anymore. They're enjoying their bodies and using them in wonderful ways.
JIM LEHRER: Dr. Butler, what is the--what is the reason for this new longevity, this new friskiness?
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Well, happily, we've not only had the dramatic reductions of death of children and infants and at times of birth, of mothers giving birth to children, which contributed greatly to that 28 years of additional life, but also since base age 65, there's been dramatic reductions in deaths and illness from heart disease and stroke, so people really are healthier and friskier, if you want to put it that way. We also have a variety of things that we didn't even have when I first began my medical practice like lens implants, hip replacements, many prosthetic devices which make it possible for people to really engage in life in a very profound way, which they simply couldn't do 20 years ago.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Whidden, the life you live, your friends who are your peers and contemporaries, do they feel the same way about--that you have a second life, that this is a new stage in life that is different than say people who were 73 years old 10, 15, 20 years ago?
GUY WHIDDEN: Not too many of my peers are really involved in anything very strenuous or anything like what I've been involved in, in my area. But I think they think about it a lot. We talk about it.
JIM LEHRER: You talk about what, that maybe being 72 now or 73 now is the equivalent to what, 62 or 63 may be--used to be?
GUY WHIDDEN: Possibly.
JIM LEHRER: Well, there have been studies to say that.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Oh, absolutely. People are, no doubt it, stronger, more vigorous, less disability, working longer, participating creatively in a variety of things, writing books, whatever. So it's a whole new stage of life.
JUDITH VIORST: And they see themselves differently. And they're doing it because they--they define themselves--at least 10 years younger--in terms of what's open to them. And I think even at the farther end of age, people are just saying, why not, and saying why not go back to school, why not take piano lessons for that wonderful Jenny Jacobs' poem, why not wear purple and a red hat that doesn't match?
JIM LEHRER: But doesn't this create a whole new set of decisions for people to make, if you had--I mean, psychologically, if you had prepared for only those first simple stages in life and, oh, you got to 65 and that's it--now, you've got to now come up with a whole �nother way to live.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: That old joke that if I had known I was going to live so long, I would have prepared for it is really true. I mean, people have to prepare in terms of savings, in terms of health care, in terms of health habits, in terms of new careers. We now already have three careers and about seven jobs on average. That's going to become even more remarkable. People are probably going to work longer because Social Security eligibility will be moved up, and we already have as the fastest growing age group the centenarians, people over 100. One of these days we won't have enough time on the Today Show to show all those wonderful centenarians.
JIM LEHRER: Right. Mr. Whidden, you've already jumped out of an airplane.
GUY WHIDDEN: Yes.
JIM LEHRER: And you've done it more than once. Is there something that you would like to do that you have not done. In other words, do you have a George Bush dream or something you would like to do?
GUY WHIDDEN: I would like to canoe the Alagash in Maine, which is a hundred and some miles, but the logistics involved, and finally somebody to go with me, and everything goes along with it, and the expense of it is something to think about.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Judy and I will go with you.
JUDITH VIORST: I'll write.
JIM LEHRER: It would never occur to you that, oh, my goodness, I'm too old to do that kind of thing, that's my point, right?
GUY WHIDDEN: Oh, no, you're never too old. And I think when you asked that question before, I was thinking in terms of jumping out of planes, but a lot of my peers are doing lots of things, and they're not thinking old; they're thinking young. They're doing other things, going back to college, which I have done, and a lot of things like that.
JIM LEHRER: So you can bear witness to what Dr. Butler is saying, right?
GUY WHIDDEN: Absolutely, 100 percent.
JIM LEHRER: Do you have a George Bush thing you'd like to do, Dr. Butler?
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Well, I've talked with my friend, John Glenn. If he decides to go back into space, I wouldn't mind being his personal doctor and going along with him, since I'm in pretty good shape.
JIM LEHRER: He did say, did he not--
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Yes.
JIM LEHRER: --that he would like to go back into space?
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Yes, he would.
JIM LEHRER: Do you think that's also part of--
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Yeah, but I won't let him go unless he takes me along.
JIM LEHRER: Do you have something?
JUDITH VIORST: I have a few things. I want to learn to speak French. Before I die I want to learn to tap dance. And when I'm 70 I intend to get a tattoo.
JIM LEHRER: A tattoo.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Where?
JIM LEHRER: Why?
JUDITH VIORST: I haven't decided that.
JIM LEHRER: Why? Why a tattoo?
JUDITH VIORST: For the fun of it, to say exactly what we've been talking about, about getting older; that if I want to do something really goofy and silly and playful, it's perfectly fine.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: Can I be responsible for a moment?
JIM LEHRER: Yes.
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: I also think older people blessed now with this gift of added life also have to make a contribution to society and, in fact, are, as we know from the Council Foundations. They give millions of dollars' worth of voluntary time in a variety of activities helping other people, children, and communities. So I think there's not only the fun part of this, but there's also a very wonderful opportunity for older people to make a genuine contribution to our society.
JIM LEHRER: What about attitudes of younger people toward older people doing this kind--
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: It's going to change. They're going to realize--
JIM LEHRER: Has it begun to change?
DR. ROBERT BUTLER: I think it has already. I think the realization that older people are capable of so many things is going to have a very positive effect because that means when you're younger, you've got a lot to look forward to, not just the image of disability and the stereotype of senility.
JIM LEHRER: Bob Kotlowitz, what--is there anything--forget you think--we heard you on what you think about what George Bush did, but I'm not going to let you off the hook that easy. Is there anything not like that--is there anything you have always wanted do that you would like to do, that, that maybe in an earlier time might be considered too old but now isn't?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: Well, I would like to walk across at least part of France on foot, maybe a 200 mile trip, which I could take over a three-week period. And, in fact, I'm thinking about doing it.
JIM LEHRER: Well, right on. Hallelujah. Jack Rosenthal, what about you?
JACK ROSENTHAL: Well, I started skiing when I was 50. I guess that's adventuresome enough.
JIM LEHRER: Boy, it really is. What brought that on?
JACK ROSENTHAL: Well, a wife who was interested in my skiing with her, and that was a lot of fun. But what that makes me realize and I think about my own father, I could not imagine him in a sweat suit, let alone on a Stairmaster, and yet you can go to any gym now and you see among all the beautiful young women in black leotards, you see a lot of older men and older women with silver hair climbing, climbing, climbing on the Stairmaster. We're all a lot younger than we would have been a generation ago.
JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Bob Kotlowitz? Just be specific. Could you imagine at your age that you would have earlier in your life said, hey, at this age I'm going to walk across France?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: No, especially since I didn't do it then. (laughter among group) You know, time gets short, and there are a few--you know, there are really a few things you really want under your belt, and this is one of them, and there are a couple of others I have in mind too. I'll save that for another discussion.
JIM LEHRER: Okay. But do you not believe that things have changed, that the aging process, as well as the aging capabilities and the state of mind have changed that makes it possible for you to realistically think about doing that?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: Well, it is an amazing thing, and I hope I'm not kidding myself about it. But there are many, many people like me out there making plans to do all kinds of things that were unthinkable 40, 30 years ago.
JIM LEHRER: And why do you think that is, Bob?
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: I think that's from advanced medical technology, a change in the psychological mind set of the society about people who are getting older, and a sense that we have all the options that young people have, or we think we do.
JIM LEHRER: And even George Bush could jump out of an airplane, Mr. Kotlowitz.
ROBERT KOTLOWITZ: In his feckles--(laughing)--
JIM LEHRER: And, of course, Jack Rosenthal, the reaction--what kind of reaction have you gotten to your issue on this matter?
JACK ROSENTHAL: A storm of reaction. It's more mail than we've gotten for any special issue we've ever published. And I guess it's small wonder there are so many more people doing so many more interesting things. Andrew Hacker told us about a bumper sticker he saw on a Winnebago. It said, "I'm spending my kids' inheritance."
JIM LEHRER: Yeah. I've got you. We have to leave it there. I'm sorry, but we have to leave it there. Judith, gentlemen, thank you all very much.

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