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DIPLOMATIC STRESS
MARCH 5, 1996
TRANSCRIPT
A series of foreign policy challenges for the U.S. - the downing of two civilian planes by the Cuban Air Force, and troubles in the Middle East with the terrorist group Hamas - are analyzed by Secretary of State Warren Christopher. The Secretary spoke to Jim Lehrer in a Newsmaker interview.
JIM LEHRER: We do go first tonight to the Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, who is with us now for a Newsmaker interview. Mr. Secretary, welcome.
WARREN CHRISTOPHER, Secretary of State: Hello, Jim.
JIM LEHRER: On, on Israel first, can these bombings be stopped?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: We can certainly make a strong effort to stop them, Jim. There's probably no foolproof way to stop them, no absolute assurance, but we're going to work very hard. We're going to aid Israel in every way we can to stop these bombings.
JIM LEHRER: The actions that Israel has taken in the last 48 hours, 24 hours, et cetera, the closing down of travel back and forth between the West Bank and Gaza and Israel, the various things I just reported in the News Summary, are those the things they should be doing?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Those are decisions taken by the Israeli government. There's a determination there to be firm. After all, as you said, what's gone on here in nine days, four major attacks, fifty-seven, fifty-eight, or fifty-nine people killed, obviously something had to be done. They've taken very firm action. Their actions are somewhat similar to what they had done before to try to prevent these terrorists, these people that are willing to give up their lives in order to kill innocent Israelis to keep them from coming to Israel.
JIM LEHRER: The decision by the U.S. today, by the President today, to send an anti-terrorism team and some bomb detecting equipment, that's more symbolic than anything else, is it not?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: No. It's more than that, Jim. Prime Minister Peres called the President yesterday, and they discussed this. And Prime Minister Peres asked that we send this bomb-detecting equipment. It's quite highly sophisticated equipment. When he went to the manufacturer last night, he had only seven of those large devices there. We arranged to get all of them and put them on a plane and take them out today. Now, they can be very useful to the Israelis. We--
JIM LEHRER: What kind of things are they?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, they are quite sophisticated sensing equipment which can be used at a border or at a barrier to make sure that whoever goes through there isn't carrying a bomb. And they are perhaps a larger, more sophisticated version of what you see going into an airport.
JIM LEHRER: I see.
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: In addition to that, Jim, we're going to be sending out a team of very experienced people who will help coordinate the work the work between the Palestinians and the Israelis and other countries in the region. So it has some symbolic importance, but it has some very tangible importance, and it's only the beginning. The President has urged us in the strongest terms to respond to the Israelis' request and some indication of how rapidly we're going to respond is Peres's request was yesterday about mid-day, and by this morning we had those devices on an airplane headed for Israel.
JIM LEHRER: Now Israeli spokesmen, including the Israeli ambassador to the United States who was on this program last night, said that the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat must also do more to combat Hamas and these terrorists. What do you think about that, what about the Authority has done thus far, and what it must do now?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, they started doing more in the last few days. I think that Chairman Arafat has got to deal with the military infrastructure of Hamas, that to deal with the people in Hamas who are responsible for conducting these raids. There was a time in the last few weeks when Chairman Arafat was trying to have a dialogue with Hamas, trying to bring them into some coordination with him. I think that effort has failed, and now he's really going to have to bear down on them. He's going to have to realize that his own survival is at stake, as well as the peace process.
JIM LEHRER: Why is his own survival at stake?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Jim, these attacks are just as much against Arafat as they are against Peres and the Israelis. They're trying to prevent the Palestinian Authority from governing. They're trying to end this peace process. They're trying to reverse the peace process, put it back into the fighting days. The Hamas is trying to prevent the peaceful integration of the West Bank that's been going on under cooperation between Arafat and Peres.
JIM LEHRER: Now, you've talked about the contacts that have gone back and forth, communications that have gone back and forth between the Israeli government and the U.S. government. What about communications with Arafat and his Authority and the U.S.?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Oh, we've been talking with him. I talk to him on the telephone frequently and very recently, and I emphasized to him the time for talk had ended, the time for rhetoric had ended.
JIM LEHRER: And you told him what you just told me?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Yes, sir, I did.
JIM LEHRER: And what did he say?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: He said we're going to do everything we can. He said, I understand that the time has come when we have to take some very firm action. And he has. He's been making arrests, rounding up people, and I think, you know, really, we're going to have to watch for his actions now. We're going to be monitoring it very closely. We're giving him some aid. I think it would be short-sighted, self-defeating to cut off that aid, but the aid shouldn't go forward unless he continues to cooperate.
JIM LEHRER: What, what do you think about the Israeli position that if, in act, the Authority under Arafat does not move strongly enough against these Hamas people within their areas that the Israeli government will, will move in there and do it? How do you feel about that?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, we'll have to watch that develop, Jim. The Israeli government will make the decisions they regard as in their own self-interest. We have to ask ourselves, have to remember what it is that is causing them to act. They're acting because of the deaths. They're acting because of the death of innocent people, innocent children. Obviously, the government has the right of self-survival. They have a right to protect themselves, and that's what they're doing at the present time.
JIM LEHRER: Now, there's another whole part to this, Mr. Secretary, of course, outside what's happening there on the ground, and that has to do with the diplomatic part.
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Yes.
JIM LEHRER: For instance, a big point was made today that Syria has not said a word of condemnation or said anything about these bombings. How should we interpret that?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, Jim, we think that all the people in the region should not only condemn the bombing but should cooperate with efforts to make sure that Hamas cannot repeat this. You know, there's quite a difference this time around. The peace
process has made enough difference so that Israel can look to its neighbors, look to Jordan. They can look to Egypt, and expect cooperation. And I talked to Foreign Minister Faraq of--Faraq-Shar of Syria today, and urged him to take steps to ensure that Hamas could not use Syria as a launching place for this kind of an attack, but we're not singling out Syria. We're saying that to all the neighbors in the regions. Indeed, Jim, I'm going to be meeting tomorrow with the ambassadors from all the countries in the region, encouraging cooperation in fighting this terrorism, and also encouraging what is really our second purpose here, and that is to preserve and renew the peace process. In the long run, the peace process is the answer to this kind of terror.
JIM LEHRER: What did the Syrian foreign minister say to you?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, he took it on board. We had a vigorous discussion.
JIM LEHRER: Hamas has an office, right, very openly has an office in Damascus, does it not?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Yes, it does have an office in Damascus, and I called that to his attention. I told him I thought that fact was not a very strong signal to be sending at the present time.
JIM LEHRER: Do you have any kind of intelligence information that traces this, these acts back to that office in Damascus in any whatsoever?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Jim, we don't have any information of that kind. I don't talk about intelligence matters--
JIM LEHRER: Sure.
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: --but we were not trying to say this particular attack or this particular series of attacks are attributable to the Syrians or any other country. We're simply saying that this is the time to crack down on Hamas, because they claimed credit. I think particularly in our sights at the present time is Iran because they've been supporting Hamas, openly supporting Hamas financially by tactical advice, and I would really want to draw a distinction between Iran and the other neighbors. We're calling this to the attention of all the neighbors, but I think the world needs to know that Iran bears heavy responsibility for its support of the Hamas.
JIM LEHRER: What can you do about Iran besides call in the world's attention to them?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, as you know, we've cut off all trade with Iran, and we've urged our, our allies and trading partners not to have preferential deals, not to do things for Iran that give them more money to support these kind of terrorism. We're really alone in trying to isolate Iran, but we're going to continue working at it, and we're not going to give up.
JIM LEHRER: Two countries that are often mentioned as doing a lot of business with Iran, Germany and France, both of whom are big allies of ours, have they been contacted officially and directly by the U.S. government in the last 24 hours, say, hey, come on, put some heat on Iran?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, not in the last 24 hours perhaps, but continually over the last several months, and we'll be contacting them starting tomorrow. We're going to have a major diplomatic endeavor dealing with those countries who have been having closer relations with Iran than we think they should, but it's an overall effort, Jim. First priority here is to stop the terrorism, encourage other nations to join us in that endeavor, and second, to try to renew and preserve the peace process.
JIM LEHRER: The peace--most everyone is now saying, Mr. Secretary, that unless these bombings are stopped and stopped now, I mean, there can't be another one tomorrow and another one after that, the peace process is over, because of just the fear and that--of--the fear of politics that will be present in Israel. Do you agree with that, that it is a short, short fuse now?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: I think we have to move very dramatically and effectively at the present time. There is no assurance that we can absolutely stop them, but the President and I and the rest of our government are going to be working very hard to assist the Israelis. Clearly, unless we get this stopped, the peace process is going to be harmed by this endeavor, no question about that, Jim. But we don't give up easily. We've got a big stake in this. It's very much in our national interest to pursue it, and we will.
JIM LEHRER: And do you have the feeling that it--that there's somebody out there helping you besides Israel and the Palestinian Authority? Is anybody really involved in trying to do something about this at this point?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Oh, absolutely. That's the difference between now and how it would have been before the peace process. The prime minister of Jordan, Mr. Cabri, made a very good statement today. We can expect Jordan's support on this. We're sure that we'll have support from, from Egypt as well. We expect other countries in the region to join us in this endeavor. This is going to be a major diplomatic endeavor to see if we can't put more pressure on Hamas and to try to make sure--and the Islamic Jihad--and make sure there's not a repetition.
JIM LEHRER: And do you think you're going to be able to prevent countries like Syria and others from allowing Hamas members in as a kind of safe haven for their, for their
bombing enterprises?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: That'll be our aim, Jim. It won't be perfect, but we'll make strides.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Changing subjects here quickly, Mr. Secretary, on Cuba, Cuba reported in the News Summary just now, that the Senate passed the bill that tightens the sanctions, when--that's going to the House now--if and when that bill comes to the President, is he going to sign it?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Yes, that has been worked out between Congress and the President. You know, with the shooting down of our two aircraft and the killing of the four civilians, there was a wave of indignation, a natural wave, that went through this country and went through the Congress as well, and I think the passage of this bill is a reflection of that. It does provide a right of action for Cubans here, for others here in the United States who've had their property confiscated. It tries to focus on those companies that might be dealing in Cuban property or affecting Cuban properties. The important thing to keep in mind is that this action by Congress is the direct reflection of that unjustified shooting down of the planes. I've been just back from a trip through Latin America, and I was struck that everyplace I went the countries involved, even though they might have a tactical difference with us on how to deal with the Cuban situation, recognized that the action of Cuba here was a violation of international law and condemned it in those terms.
JIM LEHRER: What was the consensus about why Castro and his people did this? Were they--does everybody believe they were looking for a confrontation with the United States, or was this a serious error made, or was there a consensus?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Jim, I don't think even in Latin America there's any way to plumb President Castro's mind. There's a lot of speculation about it. The best informed judgment seemed to be that President Castro thought that there was beginning to be too much political freedom, or at least a move in that direction, unnerved him, and he thought he had to, had to lash back. Now, this, this particular shooting down is not in isolation. As you know, he has taken very harsh action against dissidents. He's taken some very harsh actions against those who are supporting the civil rights, human rights cause in Cuba. This--the shooting down was obviously the most dramatic, obviously the most harmful, but over the last three or four weeks on the political side of things, i.e., on the human rights side of things, Castro has gone back from very slight progress that he seemed to be making. That was recognized throughout Latin America. I think there was a sense of disappointment, a very modest step in an encouraging direction had been reversed by Castro, and what a disappointment that was, because, you know, he's the only non-democracy in the entire Western Hemisphere. It was so rewarding to go to Latin America, and thirty-four out of the thirty-five countries practicing democracies, and I think that leaves Cuba very much isolated.
JIM LEHRER: Now, you very pointedly on your Latin American trip did not go to Colombia, because it got on the State Department, on your list, for not doing enough to combat drug trafficking. What is our relationship with Colombia now as a result of that?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, you know, we have that certification process. We have to look at the facts. We have to determine what we think is a most accurate appraisal. The statute requires us to decertify countries that we regard as not cooperating with
JIM LEHRER: Is the situation getting worse in Colombia, rather than better, as far as corruption at the top related to drugs?
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Well, it's certainly worse than it was last year. Last year, we did not decertify them, and we've done so this year. It is a--it is an evaluation we have to
make every year, and the level of corruption is such that we could, we found we could not certify them this year.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.
SEC. CHRISTOPHER: Thank you, Jim.
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