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| NO CONSPIRACY | |
 December 30, 1998 
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A grand jury looking into conspiracy theories related to the Oklahoma City bombing issued a report today saying no credible evidence supports those theories. Jim Lehrer talks with Tim Sullivan of Court TV about the report. |
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JIM LEHRER: Tim, good to see you again. TIM SULLIVAN, Court TV: Thank you, Jim. JIM LEHRER: Tim, first of all, some background on this grand jury, how did it come into being, and what was its mandate? |
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| The grand jury investigation. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: No, what was the range of these witnesses? Who were they, Tim, in general terms? TIM SULLIVAN: Well, they heard from everybody from people on the street who said that they saw Timothy McVeigh on the morning of the bombing with another man, with John Doe Two, people who said they saw the Ryder Truck that supposedly carried the bomb to Oklahoma City. JIM LEHRER: Let me interrupt you there one moment. John Doe Two - just to refresh our memories-do so.
JIM LEHRER: All right, now, they issued a 21-page report today and they issued a sealed indictment. Is anything known about what - who may be indicted? TIM SULLIVAN: Well, the indictment is still sealed. We don't officially know, Jim. But there is a report, a local report by a news organization in Oklahoma City this evening that it's an indictment of somebody for some impropriety relating to grand jury procedures. Apparently, it is not an indictment that has anything to do with the bombing of the Murrah building. JIM LEHRER: Okay. Now, the report, itself, summarize the findings for us. |
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JIM LEHRER: They did raise them during trial, did they not? TIM SULLIVAN: They certainly did. And Michael Tigar, who represented Terry Nichols, was successful in having an ATF informant come in to court and -- JIM LEHRER: Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Enforcement Agency, right. TIM SULLIVAN: Right. JIM LEHRER: And, at any rate -- I'm sorry, go ahead. |
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| Petition backers not satisfied. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: Okay. Now, what -- at least what I saw on the wires - maybe you have something to add to this - the folks who were behind, who were behind the petition drive that led to the formation of this grand jury, were still not satisfied with these conclusions today, is that correct? TIM SULLIVAN: That's correct, Jim, they are not satisfied at all. Now,
Glen Wilburn, who was one of the men who spearheaded this drive for
this grand jury, has passed away, but his stepdaughter still has a civil
suit against the United States Government, and there are some 100 or
more plaintiffs in that suit who claim the government did have prior
knowledge, and that others were involved. And that civil suit - we believe
- is still on schedule to go forward. And Charles Key, the former state
representative in Oklahoma, who also led this effort, says he is not
satisfied, and he will issue his own report within the next month or
so summarizing the conspiracy evidence that he believes does exist.
JIM LEHRER: Meanwhile, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols are in jail, or in prison. Bring us up to date on them, on their status. |
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| The status of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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TIM SULLIVAN: Well, Timothy McVeigh, of course, was sentenced to death; he's on Death Row. He's in federal prison. His first level appeal was denied out in Colorado last summer, but he has further appeals that will go forward. Eventually, we expect his appeal will get to the Supreme Court. Terry Nichols, of course, was sentenced to life in prison; he's in federal prison. His motion for a new trial has been denied. But his appeals have not yet officially been heard. And, of course, Bob Macy, the district attorney in Oklahoma City, still says that he plans to try both McVeigh and Nichols on state murder charges in Oklahoma. We'll see if that takes place. JIM LEHRER: Now, that, no matter what happens on the federal appeals, he's still going to do that? JIM LEHRER: Finally, Tim, is there any conventional wisdom at this point, as to when McVeigh might eventually - assuming that this is upheld on appeal - would eventually be executed? TIM SULLIVAN: Well, Jim, there aren't a lot of people on Death Row in the federal system. There were fewer than a dozen people on Death Row in the federal system when Timothy McVeigh was sentenced. But the average that they have been there is about five years. So, I think it's only been a little more than a year since his sentence -- I think reasonably another five years or so before they get around to carrying out that sentence, if his appeals do not succeed. JIM LEHRER: All right. Tim Sullivan, good to see you again. Happy New Year! TIM SULLIVAN: Thank you, Jim. |
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JIM
LEHRER: The Oklahoma City bombing story and to Court TV's Tim
Sullivan. He covered the trials of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols
both for Court TV and for us. 
TIM
SULLIVAN, Court TV: Well, Jim, there is a law that not very many
states have, but Oklahoma does, which says that by a petition of the
citizens, with a sufficient number of signatures, a grand jury can be
convened by popular demand, if you will. And that's what happened. Charles
Key, a former state representative in Oklahoma and Glen Wilburn, a gentleman
who lost two grandsons in the bombing, spearheaded a drive - the petition
drive to convene a grand jury to look into these various conspiracy
theories about the case. And that's how it came into being about 18
months ago. And now after hearing testimony from approximately 120 witnesses,
its work is done and here is its final report. 
TIM
SULLIVAN: John Doe Two was the suspect who the federal government was
looking for in the days immediately after the bombing. He was a man
supposedly who was with Timothy McVeigh when Timothy McVeigh rented
the Ryder Truck that eventually carried the bomb to the Murrah building
in Oklahoma City. And, if we remember, there were two sketches that
came out immediately after the bombing. John Doe One turned out to be
Timothy McVeigh and John Doe Two was this second suspect, who was never
found. And so they heard from people who said they saw him and finally
all the way up to FBI Agent John Hirschly, the lead FBI agent on the
case, testifying in front of this grand jury. 
TIM
SULLIVAN: Well, the findings basically are a complete vindication of
the federal prosecution of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. It's kind
of ironic, because this grand jury was put together at the behest of
two men who believed that there was a broader conspiracy and that a
full investigation would reveal that more people were involved than
just Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Well, now the opposite has happened.
This grand jury's report says that there is no credible evidence that
anyone other than McVeigh and Nichols was involved, that there is no
credible evidence that the government or the ATF or any government agencies
had prior knowledge that a bombing would occur; that was one of the
popular conspiracy theories. And finally they said that there is no
evidence that this white supremacist compound in Eastern Oklahoma called
Elohim City was the place where the bomb conspiracy was hatched. And
that was something that defense teams for both McVeigh and Nichols tried
to show at their trials in Denver. 
TIM
SULLIVAN: Well, she testified that people at that compound - it's called
Elohim City in Eastern Oklahoma - that people at that compound talked
about blowing up federal buildings in Oklahoma, and even that they went
to Oklahoma City to case buildings in her presence. This was a woman
named Carol Howe, who was an informer for the ATF. She testified, but
this grand jury says there is not enough evidence there to prove that
anybody else was involved in the bombing. 
TIM
SULLIVAN: He says he will. I think it's considered more likely out in
Oklahoma City that he would go forward with a case against Terry Nichols,
who was sentenced to life, and he might not actually go forward with
a case against McVeigh, since McVeigh is expected to be executed by
the federal government, barring his conviction being overturned. But
Bob Macy has said very recently that he still expects to proceed against
both defendants.
