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Today the Senate Defense Committee held hearings on the terrorist bomb attack that killed 19 U.S. servicemen in Saudi Arabia. Jim Lehrer talks to two prominent members of that committee, Senators John McCain (R), and Sam Nunn (D) about the days proceedings. First, Charles Krause reports on the Senate hearings on the terrorist bomb attack in Saudi Arabia.
CHARLES KRAUSE: Today's Senate hearing focused on the June 25th truck bomb attack near Dhahran in Saudi Arabia that left 19 U.S. Airmen dead and more than 300 others wounded. The blast ripped apart an apartment building in the Khobar Towers Complex where the American servicemen were housed. It was so strong that the bomb was heard and felt miles away. The blast last month was a second terrorist attack aimed at U.S. military personnel based in Saudi Arabia in less than a year.
Last November, five Americans were killed when another bomb exploded outside a building used to train members of the Saudi National Guard in the Saudi capital of Riyadh. Months later, four Saudis were convicted for their part in that attack, but despite U.S. requests, U.S. intelligence and law enforcement personnel were not allowed by the Saudi government to question them. After one of the alleged bombers confessed on Saudi television, the four men were beheaded last May, despite warnings of retaliation received by the U.S. Embassy. The second bombing occurred just a month later, and since then, questions have been raised in Congress and in the media about security at the base near Dhahran, especially in light of the warnings.
Specifically, many of the questions focus on why a perimeter barrier designed to protect the airmen was located only 80 feet from the apartment building where they were living. The bomb exploded just beyond the perimeter about 100 feet from the Khobar complex. According to news reports months before the second bombing mid-level U.S. commanders in Dhahran had recommended that the barrier be moved 400 feet from the building but the requests were reportedly denied by the Saudis. Testifying today before the Senate Armed Services Committee were Secretary of Defense William J. Perry, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General John Shalikashvili, and General Binford Peay, III, head of the U.S. Central Command with direct responsibility for U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia. In his lead-off testimony, Sec. Perry acknowledged that the Pentagon was simply inadequately prepared for the size and scope of the second attack.
WILLIAM PERRY, Secretary of Defense: In November of last year, a group of Saudi religious extremists attacked the office of the U.S. program manager for the Saudi National Guard in Riyadh with a car bomb, killing five Americans. At that point, we made what we believed to be a prudent judgment that this attack might not be an isolated event but a new trend, and, thus, assigned a high terrorist threat level to Saudi Arabia. In response to this judgment, we conducted analyses of the vulnerability of our forces in Saudi Arabia.
In particular, the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations conducted a vulnerability analysis of the Khobar Towers. It was completed in January of this year. It was informed by full access to intelligence on a terrorist threat to Saudi Arabia, but the intelligence information, while voluminous and while pointing to a high threat level, was also fragmentary and inconclusive. It did not provide the user with any specific threat, but rather laid out a wide variety of threat alternatives. My assessment is that our commanders were trying to do right, but given the inconclusive nature of the intelligence, had a difficult task to know specifically what to plan for, and many of the protective measures they took were more appropriate for the size of the bomb used in November. But this attack turned out to be 10 times as powerful as a previous attack.
GEN. JOHN SHALIKASHVILI, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff: No one, not even the Israelis who have more experience than any other people in dealing with terrorism, has figured out a way to decisively defeat it in the near term. But in the areas where interests are great, we must accept that risk while at the same time continuing to work consistently and methodically to reduce the risk to our men and women in uniform. The Downing assessment is another step in that continuous process, but in the end, we cannot let acts of terrorism deter us from pursuing our vital interests.
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III, Commander in Chief, Central Command: Central command and subordinate commands competently fulfill their intelligence analysis collection and dissemination responsibilities prior to the Khobar Towers bombing. Central command its component commanders initiate a series of security-related inspections throughout the region, a daunting task when you consider that I am responsible for over 50 military facilities, large facilities, and sites for combatants in the region, and between the chiefs of mission and myself, hundreds and hundreds of facilities and housing areas for military non-combatants.
We have completed 50 assessments since January 1996, assessments that have led to further security enhancements. As in the case with any military offense, we are always improving our positions, continually collecting and analyzing intelligence, replacing sand bags, enhancing perimeters, installing improved sensors, early warning devices, deploying ground dogs, guard dogs, positioning machine guns, and increasing guards and patrols. To summarize, the local command has implemented over 130 security improvements at Khobar Towers between November 1995 and June 1996, and I can tell you in talking with Norm Schwarzkopf several times the facility today at the time of the bombing was in considerably greater protection than it was throughout the Gulf War.
SEN. SAM NUNN, (D) Georgia: General Peay, did the Saudi officials turn down a request to extend the perimeter at Khobar Towers facility and, if so, was this decision appeal up to your level of the chain of command, and did you pass it on if it got to you?
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III: Sir, I don't know the exact answer to that. I think that'll be one of the questions that'll have to be resolved in the--under sworn testimony.
SEN. SAM NUNN: But you would know whether it got to you, wouldn't you?
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III: It never came to Central Command, and I don't know if it came to the next intermediate command between me and, and the commander really at the front end of the sphere.
SEN. SAM NUNN: It never got to your level.
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III: It did not.
SEN. SAM NUNN: Did you--could it have gotten to Gen. Shalikashvili or Sec. Perry?
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III: It would not have if it did not come to me.
SPOKESMAN: Senator Warner.
SEN. JOHN WARNER, (R) Virginia: Thank you. I'm going to pick up on that question by Sen. Nunn, because it seems to me the responsibility of this committee is to establish accountability. We're not out here to head hunt or anything like that, but the buck stops here at this committee because the people of the United States look to the Congress as the ones really ultimately responsible for the welfare of the men and women of the armed forces that take these risks all over the world. And Gen. Peay, I'm stunned by the answer that it's almost two weeks since this incident and you still do not know whether or not your subordinates appealed this decision above the--as I understand it--the general officer level in the field.
GEN. J. H. BINFORD PEAY, III: Well, let me tell you what I've gotten telephonically and I have deliberately tried not to get into that detail of investigation while the investigation is ongoing by Gen. Downing. There's lots--
SEN. JOHN WARNER: I assume the President would have been interested in this and would have called in and asked, well, what happened out there, you knew that we were coming up here with this hearing, so I must say I'm stunned. Mr. Secretary, in your opening remarks, you stated there is no issue that I feel more deeply about or tasks that I work harder than the safety and the welfare of our military personnel, yet, we're learning today of a failure to bring forward up through the chain of command what now appears to everyone a very serious breakdown between the discussions between our military and perhaps the U.S. Embassy in Saudi and the Saudi government about the need to improve security. Did you implement as a party to your concern about overseas security instructions to your subordinates to bring these questions up to you personally?
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: We always promote exercising the chain of command vigorously in both directions, and that certainly includes calling for help when you need help. And the judgment call here was whether they thought they needed help. In retrospect, it seems clear they did, and it's quite clear that Gen. Peay and Gen. Shali and I would have been prepared to help had we gotten this request.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R) Arizona: After the Riyadh bombing in November, it was clear that security at U.S. installations in Saudi Arabia had to be increased, and apparently Gen. Peay did not visit the facilities, did not keep close track of security enhancements, and still doesn't seem to have a good grasp of the situation under his command. Were we or we were not allowed to interrogate those men that were beheaded, those terrorists who were arrested, beheaded in Riyadh? Do you know the answer to that, Sec. Perry?
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: I know that Director Freeh told me were not.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN: But, Mr. Secretary, you're the one that's responsible for the security of these men and women. Wouldn't you want to have that information?
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: I do want it, and I am going to insist on getting it on this investigation.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Did you ask for it after--at the time?
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: I did not ask for it at the time.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN: You made that judgment that it would be a high terrorist threat level to Saudi Arabia and yet, you didn't ask for the information that was obtained from the previous terrorists that were arrested, tried, and executed?
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: We are asking for it, and as I testified, we expect full cooperation from the Saudis in this investigation.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN: But you did not ask for it, according to your testimony, at the time.
SEC. WILLIAM PERRY: That is correct.
SEN. JOHN McCAIN: I think that answer speaks for itself.
SEN. SAM NUNN: I hope we don't come out of this hearing with the mentality that the only thing that a commander does in the field protecting our national interest is to protect the force because if that's the whole mission, then we will have a bunker mentality, and we will not be able to protect America's national interests and the largest superpower in the world will find itself immobilized.
MR. KRAUSE: After the morning session, the committee held a closed hearing, including the extraordinary step of taking testimony from Saudi Amb. Prince Bandar.
MR. LEHRER: Joining us now are two Senators from that committee we just saw in action, Republican John McCain of Arizona, Democrat Sam Nunn of Georgia. Sen. McCain, were you satisfied with the answers you got today?
SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R) Arizona: I was not, Jim. I was very disappointed. I think that Sec. Perry is a fine man, and I think the same about both generals. What bothers me is, more than anything else, is that there was one terrorist attack in which five Americans lost their lives. They arrested terrorists and convicted them, and the United States did not insist on having whatever information the Saudis had. I would have insisted that our FBI be allowed in the interrogation, so, therefore, we were surprised at the size of the detonation, the size of the explosive, and were subjected to another terrorist attack. We will never know what information those four previous suspects had, and frankly, that's not an acceptable methodology to employ.
MR. LEHRER: How did you read the explanation you got today? Was it just a decision that was made at some level that that kind of information wasn't necessary or somebody--or dereliction of duty? How would you characterize what happened?
SEN. McCAIN: I asked Sec. Perry if he had the information; he said no. I asked him if he sought it at the time; he said no. So my only conclusion is that he didn't feel it was important enough. I think it's very important, especially in light of five Americans already having been killed.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Nunn, does this trouble you as much as it does Sen. McCain?
SEN. SAM NUNN, (D) Georgia: I think Sen. McCain has a very valid point here, that at the time that November attack occurred, we should have gotten all the information that the Saudis had, and we should have been accorded the privilege of at least getting that information, if not interviewing. I think interviewing the people who perpetrated the act would have been in order too. I think it's questionable whether that was Sec. Perry's duty. It was the FBI that was asking for this information, but evidently it did not get kicked upstairs in time enough to have our State Department and the White House and others weighed in with the Saudis. Sec. Perry said at a later closed hearing--and I think he issued a statement on this--I'm permitted to talk about it--that by the time he knew that we had not gotten the information, the Saudis had already executed the individuals involved. So at that stage it was very difficult to, uh, to get the information unless directly from the Saudis.
MR. LEHRER: Now, Sen. Nunn, you raised another, another concern, which was that moving the perimeter and whether or not the request went to the Saudis and what the Saudis said and all of that, did you get satisfactory answers to your questions?
SEN. NUNN: I don't think we know all the answers yet, and that's why Gen. Downing has been appointed, I think appropriately, by Sec. Perry to conduct an independent investigation outside the chain of command. Gen. Downing headed up our special operational forces, a very fine general, and he's retired, so he'll be able to give us an independent objective evaluation, but in the meantime, Gen. Peay and those in the chain of command need to know enough about the situation to take corrective steps so that we protect our forces who remain in Saudi Arabia and we learn the lessons quickly so that we can apply 'em around the world. I do think, though, that we need to be careful in conveying the impression that we expect our commanders out there to offer full protection of all of our forces while protecting the mission and carrying out the mission too. We want to strive for that but in the world of terrorism which we're in now, we're going to have some hits, and the thing we have to do is minimize 'em and do everything we possibly can reasonably while carrying out the mission to protect the forces also.
SEN. McCAIN: Jim, could I say--
MR. LEHRER: Yes.
SEN. McCAIN: --that I agree with that but I also think it's important to note that there's been an 82 percent cut in the Air Force anti-terrorism funding and a 57 percent cut in the Army ant-terrorism. If the threat is as severe as Sen. Nunn and I and others think, uh, this kind of reduction in anti-terrorism funding is, is really hard to understand, and second of all, I'd like to put this in a little bit bigger picture here. One, after the November bombing, the President of the United States had this anti-terrorism summit. He came out of it and pledged that all were going to cooperate and share information. Obviously, that didn't happen with the Saudis, and it's to me hard to understand why especially after this anti-terrorism summit, why we wouldn't have that information readily available from the Saudis, especially in light of the fact that it was deemed by the Secretary of Defense in his own testimony to be a very high threat area after the first attack.
MR. LEHRER: So you don't believe that, that the actions match the words on anti-terrorism, is that what you're saying?l
SEN. McCAIN: Absolutely. I mean, they had the summit. They, uh, Hafez Assad was the one missing. They couldn't agree on a statement concerning Iran, and they all came out and held their hands up in the air and declared the terrorism problem over, and frankly, that photo op foreign policy is something that some of us find really unacceptable.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Nunn.
SEN. NUNN: I certainly don't think the counter-terrorism budget should go down. We're trying to get those figures Sen. McCain has, certain figures that I'm told right now are being reviewed, and I do not have the figures, and I have not been able to ascertain the accuracy of those figures, but we had an amendment--Sen. Lugar and Sen. Domenici and I on the floor of the Senate--increasing, dramatically increasing the effort here at home to protect our own people, not just military personnel but also our civilian soft targets against terrorism but certainly against terrorism in particular of weapons of mass destruction.
We are not going to just be debating in the future how wide the perimeter ought to be and how big the bomb is going to be. We've got to get ready for chemical and biological attacks both in the Middle East and here at home. We've got to help our policemen and firemen and our health officials prepare themselves. We've got to do everything we can to strengthen our borders here at home to prevent the material of that nature which could kill tens of thousands of people from coming across those borders, and we need to work continuously as we are now, and I must say Sec. Perry has taken the lead in this in stopping the proliferation of these kind of weapons of mass terror that could proliferate in the world, stopping that at the source, so that we work with the former Soviet Union countries to keep them under control and safe there, so we've got many dimensions of this, this whole effort to combat terrorism. We're in a different era now. We're going to have to understand it both here at home and abroad.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Nunn, speaking of Sec. Perry and back to the bombing in Saudi Arabia, Sen. Specter of Pennsylvania has called for Senator--or Sec. Perry to resign because of the--of the bombing. Do you share that? Do you think Sec. Perry should do that?
SEN. NUNN: Well, I don't recall that happening when the--we had the terrible tragedy in Lebanon. I do not recall it happening in other instances. The Secretary of Defense has to be accountable, but he cannot be responsible for the security arrangements at every military housing or base in the nation and in the world. He has to appoint good people, as he said this morning. There has to be chain of command accountability. That's what Gen. Downing's report will come up with, but I think now to call for his resignation, it must be based on information that I have not heard in either open or classified section hearings or otherwise. To me, it has no logic behind it.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, do you--how do you feel about--
SEN. McCAIN: I agree with Sen. Nunn.
MR. LEHRER: Okay.
SEN. McCAIN: I think it would not be appropriate to call for someone's resignation until we have all the facts, all the information, and I would also point out that here in the Congress Sec. Perry has a good reputation. He's looked after the men and women in the military. But I also think that would be a decision that the President of the United States should make.
MR. LEHRER: Well, Sen. McCain, based on what you know now, without putting names by the--by the slots, do you have the feeling that there was some dereliction of duty that--that resulted in the killing of these 19 Americans?
SEN. McCAIN: I have the feeling that serious, serious errors were made which allowed a scenario to evolve which significantly contributed to the size of the casualties and this tragedy.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Nunn, do you share that?
SEN. NUNN: I think serious errors were made. Dereliction of duty is another term altogether. I would not use that. I think that errors were made here, though, but we also have to understand it's a lot easier to look back in hindsight. The commander out there in the field has got to--the primary duty out there of these Air Force personnel was to protect Southern Iraq, the people in Southern Iraq. So they had a mission they had to be carrying out while all this was going on, but, again, yes, errors were made. We're in a different era. We're going to have to start making sure we understand we are in that different period of time and terrorism, in my view, and proliferation, the combination of terrorism and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction is the No. 1 security threat we face, I think, and will face for sometime to come.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, were you disturbed by Gen. Peay's inability to say what had happened in certain cases, in other words, an investigation was underway in whatever? Several Senators seemed to be concerned about that. Were you as well?
SEN. McCAIN: I was amazed. I would have thought that Gen. Peay would have called the people who were under his command and find out for himself exactly what happened that caused this tragedy and I found his answer, to say, well, I was waiting for the investigation to be completed, unsatisfactory.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Warner, Sen. Nunn, used the word "stunned." Were you stunned as well?
SEN. McCAIN: Oh, I've been around here about 10 years. It's hard to stun me, but I was, I was surprised.
MR. LEHRER: Sen. Nunn.
SEN. NUNN: I think Gen. Peay was basically making it clear he was not going to in any way interfere with this independent investigation which, after all, is an investigation of an event that occurred under his overall command. I don't think he meant to convey but some could have gotten the impression that he was not following through with steps to find out enough about what happened so that he could improve dramatically the situation for our troops now. I believe he's on that course, and I think later he made that clear. But the first part of his answer did not.
SEN. McCAIN: Jim, here's one aspect of the situation, is that he, he very correctly said we've got to give these people in the field the responsibility and the authority and not interfere with it. I think that's a very legitimate statement, but if those people at that level are frustrated and unable to achieve the goal, i.e., enhance the security and ensure the security, then it should have gone up the line--
MR. LEHRER: All right.
SEN. McCAIN: --and we did not get a satisfactory question as to why that issue was not raised up to the highest level.
MR. LEHRER: All right. Senators, thank you both very much.
SEN. McCAIN: Thank you.
SEN. NUNN: Thank you, Jim.
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