|
|
| THE CONGRESSIONAL VIEW
February 10, 1998The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer Transcript |
|---|
In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright announced that there is increasing international support for the U.S. position against Iraq. But how strong is support in Congress? Jim Lehrer discusses the possibility of an attack with four members of Congress.
A RealAudio version of this segment is available.
NEWSHOUR LINKS:
February 9, 1998
Regional commentators give local perspectives on the growing crisis with Iraq.
February 4, 1998
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright tries to marshal support for a possible attack on Iraq.
January 30, 1998
The U.S. tries rallying support for military action against Iraq.
January 14, 1998
Iraq's U.N. Ambassador, Nizar Hamdoon, defends his country's actions.
January 13, 1998
Amb. Butler discusses the latest disagreement with Iraq.
December 18, 1997
Amb. Butler discusses Iraq's continued defiance of U.N. inspections.
December 1, 1997
Margaret Warner leads a discussion on the proposals to ease the impact of international sanctions on Iraq.
November 25, 1997
Is Saddam Hussein illegally hiding weapons throughout Iraq?
Online Forum:
What's the best way to deal with Iraq?
November 20, 1997
U.N. Ambassador Richardson on the possible resolution of the Iraq crisis.
November 17, 1997
Arab perspectives on the Iraqi crisis.
November 14, 1997
Sandy Berger the National Security Adviser, discusses the Iraqi crisis.
November 13, 1997
Newsmaker interview with Deputy PM Aziz who defends his country's expulsion of U.N. weapons inspectors.
November 12, 1997
U.N. Ambassador Bill Richardson discusses the Security Council's vote to impose stricter sanctions on Iraq.
November 11, 1997
Four foreign policy experts debate how best to deal with Saddam Hussein.
November 10, 1997
Defense Sec. Cohen discusses the situation with Iraq.
November 6, 1997
The chief U.N. arms inspector discusses Saddam's latest moves.
November 3, 1997
U.N. Ambassador Richardson discusses tensions between the U.S. and Iraq.
October 9, 1997
Sec. Cohen issues a stern warning to Saddam Hussein.
Online Forum: 1996:
The plight of the Kurds in Northern Iraq.
Browse the NewsHour's coverage of the Middle East.
OUTSIDE LINKS
United Nations
Iraq-ArabNet
JIM LEHRER: We get four congressional views now: two Republicans from the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Richard Lugar of Indiana and Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas, who chairs the Mideast Subcommittee, and two Democrats, Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, a member of the International Relations Committee, and Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, a member of the Armed Services Committee. He was among a group of Senators who accompanied Defense Secretary Cohen on part of his foreign swing this weekend.
Defining the mission.
Senator Lugar, in general terms, do you support the administration's decision to strike Iraq?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: I believe that we must act. The diplomacy has failed, and we have to be credible, but I would have to say I share a lot of Republican sentiment that the administration has not been well prepared for this; that even now these discussions were having are very important to refine the goals, the targets, the follow-through afterwards, the money that is required if we are to have three carriers or various enforcements of planes and troops in that area, and in short, there's a lot of work to be done. It's important the world see us unified, and for the moment, there is some profound Republican feeling that this is a situation which diplomacy was allowed to lapse and, as we heard Secretary Albright, she supposes the American people would not support ground troops; therefore, a lot is precluded even before we even begin, and it's not clear at all what will define success and what the American people will think after the operation is over. So I'm concerned about this. I want to support the administration. I want to work with Trent Lott, our leader, who is strongly committed to that. But we have a lot of work to do in the next few days.
JIM LEHRER: Sen. Lieberman, how would you define success in this?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, I think the administration, Jim, has made it clear that success would be the implementation of what the United Nations inspectors were supposed to do, which is to reduce Saddam Hussein's capacity to deliver, with ballistic missiles, weapons of mass destruction--chemical and biological--he broke the promises he made at the end of the Gulf War to allow the inspection. Our aim is to in some sense accomplish what the inspections were meant to accomplish.
JIM LEHRER: Are you convinced they can be done by military strikes that have been proposed by the administration?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, it's certainly not going to be as effective as it would be if he kept his promise and allowed us to do the unconditional inspections we were promised we could do, but it will limit his capacities and in some sense, I hope, it will diminish his power. But all of us have to be honest about this. This is not the end of a policy. It's the beginning of a policy, and I think there is a growing feeling among members in both political parties on Capitol Hill that we have to state the longer-term goals. And I believe they should be to change the regime in Iraq and--
JIM LEHRER: To topple Saddam Hussein, as I said?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Right. I don't say this believing it's easy and I don't say it believing it's going to happen tomorrow. You saw how resilient he was during and after the Gulf War, but I think we've seen enough of his treachery to reach the conclusion that we can't deal with him in a trustworthy way, and he represents a real threat, just as we drew the line in 1991 on his invasion of Kuwait, I think we've got to draw the line and send a larger message to other countries around the world that we're not going to tolerate rogue nations developing chemical and biological weapons capacity with which they can damage or blackmail a lot of the rest of the world.
Rep. McKinney: "Is [this] worth going to war over? I don't think so."
JIM LEHRER: Congresswoman McKinney, where do you come down on sending the message and drawing the line?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, I've got three points I'd like to make. First of all, I have a newspaper article that was written by an Israeli military analyst, Meir Stiglitz, in Yediote Aharanote, who writes: "There is no such thing as a long range Iraqi missile with an effective biological warhead. No one has found an Iraqi biological warhead. The chances of Iraq having succeeded to develop operative warheads without tests are zero." The second point I'd like to make is that in 1992 UNSCOM determined Iraq had no engines and no launchers. The third and final point I would like to make is that this crisis has come about as a result of two issues really: access of the inspection team and the composition of the inspection team. I think that the international community would all stand behind unfettered access of the inspection team, but also on this question of the composition of the--of the inspection team, is that worth going to war over? I don't think so. Kofi Annan has suggested that the United Nations could be flexible in this area, and I think the United States needs to be flexible as well.
JIM LEHRER: So what do you think should be done?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, I think we need to listen and work with the United Nations leader, Kofi Annan, and come up with a flexible response that satisfies the situation that caused this in the first place, which was the composition of the inspection team.
JIM LEHRER: So, it's not worth going to war over?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, last time we killed 100,000 people in bombing Iraq. How many people are we going to kill this time just because we don't want to set a precedent for having a country dictate to the United Nations and to the international community who can do an inspection. When Kofi Annan says that the United Nations is willing to be flexible on this issue, I think we need to listen to him, and we need to work with him.
JIM LEHRER: Sen. Brownback, what do you say about that?
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: Well, to me the only long-term strategy that really makes any sense is to destabilize Saddam Hussein and to support a different Iraqi regime to come into place. If involves toppling him on some sort of strategy of a long-term nature, of a sustained air attack, other military engagement, that's the only one that makes sense because otherwise under any of these scenarios Saddam Hussein stays in power, Saddam Hussein is able to reconstitute biological and chemical weapons, which he has proven in the past he is willing to use and has used in his own country and on neighbors, and he continues to be a threat.
JIM LEHRER: But what--
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: And what is our response then to other countries trying to usurp our own electoral system and our own government? I think we need to be very careful when we say that we're going to target another leader because then that opens the door for other countries to target our leaders and our government.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: We're talking about a United Nations action that they've already said that he should not be developing or have weapons of mass destruction. We're talking about a global group of people that are saying this man is a dangerous dictator; he's not an elected person by the Iraqi people, and he has shown the willingness to use weapons of mass destruction.
Sen. Lugar: "We are the leaders."
JIM LEHRER: But let's pursue that. Sen. Lugar, why is it that only the United States is leading this? I mean, would you not agree with the consensus that if we were not the ones leading, this wouldn't be happening, that nobody else was going to go in there and organize a military strike?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: Yes, I do feel that's the case, and it's regrettable. It's the case that Bosnia blew up and continued to blow up until we took leadership. It's the case, in fact, the North Koreans have overrun the South Koreans by this time if we were not there. That is what we do in this world. We are the leaders. A lot of people are uncomfortable with that and would find all sorts of reasons why tyranny, weapons of mass destruction, cut off of energy supplies, all this could happen, but ultimately the President of the United States, the Congress, the people have to step up to it, and it's in our best interest. We are a prosperous country and a prosperous world because we have--we have won, and we've got democracy, we've got liberal economics, but it depends upon security, and Saddam is a potential cutoff of that.
JIM LEHRER: Congresswoman McKinney, where do you come down on this question that if the United States doesn't do it, it doesn't get done in the world these days?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, I have several feelings. First of all, I would like to just say that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, those countries in the area don't support the use of force in this--on this particular issue. The second question I would like to ask is: What happens when we make this unilateral move? What happens to the peace process? Do we jeopardize something that is also in our national interest and in the world's interest to see the successful completion of the Middle East peace process? What happens to the peace process when we make this unilateral move?
JIM LEHRER: Let me ask Sen. Lieberman that question.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: The peace process has a life of its own. I think the reality we have to face here is that we're in this crisis, with all respect to Congresswoman McKinney, not just because of the composition of the inspection teams. Mr. Butler, the Australian who heads UNSCOM, tells us that repeatedly over the years Saddam Hussein, the Iraqis, have frustrated the inspections. We know for a fact that he has enormous quantities of chemicals and poisons with which he can inflict untold ruination on his neighbors and perhaps beyond. And this is a question of ultimately toppling or being toppled. I mean, I think it's that important, so, yes, I'm committed to the Middle East peace process. I want to see it go forward. You know, the best way for it to go forward is for the United States to show the kind of leadership we have and have allies now joining us: Britain, Germany, and most recently and significantly in the region Bahrain and Oman and Kuwait, allowing us to fly attack missions out of their territory. This man is a threat.
"Do you not--simply not buy the idea that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction...?"
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: We don't have Egypt. We don't have Saudi Arabia. We don't have Jordan. Those are--
JIM LEHRER: Let me--
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: --very important countries in the region, whose support we had in 1991.
JIM LEHRER: Let me ask you this.
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: We don't have that support this time.
JIM LEHRER: Let me ask you this, Congresswoman McKinney.
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Yes.
JIM LEHRER: Do you not--simply not buy the idea that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and they are, in fact, a threat to the region and to stability throughout the world?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, I would listen to what UNSCOM has said, and I would also listen to what this military adviser to Israel has said, and that is that as of now, biological warhead delivery is not an issue as far as Iraq is concerned. Do we want Iraq to have weapons of mass destruction? No. But I would also had that the United States since World War II has become the world's No. 1 arms dealer and 40 million people have been killed as a result of the use of conventional weapons. We need to curb that as well.
JIM LEHRER: Sen. Brownback.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: I was going to say what happens to the peace process if we don't act--given how far down the road we are with saying that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the region and is somebody that will use these weapons of mass destruction--what happens to the currency of our word around the world and particularly in the Middle East if we're unwilling to deal in a situation where he has confronted us and basically said I am not going to allow the U.N. sanction, I'm not going to allow the U.N. inspectors in? I think we lose enormous credibility.
Can we topple Saddam Hussein and then leave?
JIM LEHRER: What about the question that was asked of Sec. Albright? We had it in our clip a moment ago. Is it possible to topple Saddam Hussein and then just leave?
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: I think there are several options here, and this is something that would have to be a long-term strategy. You have the Iraqi national congress that we have previously supported and worked with that we could engage and work with further, and I think we're going to have to work within Iraq to develop indigenous people to take over and to take over the regime.
JIM LEHRER: Is that a realistic option, Sen. Lugar? Do you--
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: Yes, but once again, we start from scratch. This is the problem. As Sec. Albright says six months of preparation for Desert Storm, but here we all are hunting and pecking around, looking for missions that can be a success and we've got to do it. It's--but this is catch-up ball at this point.
JIM LEHRER: As a--
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: I want--
JIM LEHRER: Yes.
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: I would suggest that our word lost currency back in 1991 when we encouraged an uprising and didn't follow through with what--with our promises.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, you're absolutely right; we should have done it then, and we should have been supporting the Iraqi opposition since then. What happens too often after wars is that we forget the sources of the conflict; we move on to the next subject; and we end up paying for that as we are now.
Counting votes in Congress.
JIM LEHRER: As a practical matter, Congresswoman McKinney, your views aside, do you think the House of Representatives is going to support the President on this?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, it's very difficult for me to put my views aside. I'm going to be very vocal on the floor of the House.
JIM LEHRER: No, I mean, just vote counting. I mean, I'm not--I'm not saying you're going to vote for it. I mean, do you think that the momentum in the Congress is to support the President?
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, it seems very easy to demonize the days and to find somebody to jump up on so that we can use our military forces. I think what we really ought to do is to let diplomacy work and listen a little bit more effectively.
JIM LEHRER: Sen. Lugar, what do you think is going to happen? I mean, there's a resolution now that's been presented in the Senate. Do you think it's going to pass?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: Well, I think that's still under consideration. My hope is that it will. Our leader, Trent Lott, has indicated that he believes we need to stand with the President, but before we stand, Republicans are saying to our leader we want to know what the game is and we want to make sure the administration is prepared and that this is an ongoing process that leads to some change in Iraq that is very important.
JIM LEHRER: There must be a change in the leadership of Iraq, or forget it?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: I think ultimately there has to be a change; it doesn't mean forget the current steps. We're not ready for the ultimate change; we have some work to do, as Sam has said, with Iraqis who don't like Saddam, as well as with some allies, who need to sort of get with us. I heard earlier about how these people are not supporting us, but, you know, they're going to have to listen up. We have been saving them, and at some point our President sort of has to lay it on the line and say the next time you get a call from the Middle East and this line is going to be open if you help now--the same with NATO allies and with Boris Yeltsin and Russia--we really need to have a heart-to-heart talk. This just won't work as it now stands.
JIM LEHRER: You're nodding in agreement, Sen. Lieberman.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Absolutely right.
Uncertain allies.
JIM LEHRER: The line's got to be laid to our allies as much as it is to Saddam Hussein?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Yes. I mean, I don't understand why the Saudis won't support us. I think if we show leadership and indicate that we're in this for the long haul, this is not just a few days and that we're going to forget Iraq again, they will be with us, and they should be with us because they are much more immediate targets of Saddam Hussein's actions than we are.
REP. CYNTHIA McKINNEY: Well, you know, support works two ways, and I think maybe we need to listen to our allies, who are not on board with this, and listen to them.
JIM LEHRER: What about that? The conversation is two ways, Sen. Brownback.
SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: Obviously, we should have a discussion, but I think we should show leadership, and I might add, these are the most difficult decisions that any of us as policy makers make, because you're talking about people's lives on the line. You know, it was difficult in committing troops to Bosnia. This is going to be a very difficult decision; this is not anything any of us take lightly. I just don't want to be in the studio with you in five years talking again about what are we going to do about Saddam Hussein and Iraq, as we have for the past seven years.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Well, Congresswoman McKinney, gentlemen, thank you very much.
 |
        |
|
| Support the kind of journalism done by the NewsHour...Become a member of your local PBS station. | ||
| ||
| PBS Online Privacy Policy Copyright ©1996- MacNeil/Lehrer Productions. All Rights Reserved. | ||
| ||
