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| DEATH SENTENCE | |
 June 29, 1999 
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And Dr. Najmaldin Karim is president of the Washington Kurdish Institute, and also president of the Kurdish National Congress of North America; he was born in Kurdish Iraq, and is now a U.S. citizen. We asked the Turkish embassy to participate, but it declined. Welcome, gentlemen. |
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| A just verdict? | ||||||||||||||
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Dr. Karim, was this a just outcome?
We believe that Mr. Ocalan's statements and call for peace is genuine and it provides a historic opportunity for the Kurds and for the Turks to come to terms and live in peace and democracy within the borders of Turkey where the Kurds must have the legitimate rights, including cultural rights and political rights. MARGARET WARNER: What's your reaction to the verdict?
So I think the trial is important in that respect. It's also important in the sense that he readily admitted his role in this campaign of violence, which has been lasting now for more than two decades. And I think in a sense he admits freely that he was leading this campaign to achieve his goals, which at this point, of course, turned out to be unrealizable. MARGARET WARNER: Given that, and he did admit, he took responsibility for a lot of what had occurred, do you think it was a just trial? DR. NAJMALDIN KARIM: Of course it was not. And this was expressed by Mary Robinson, who is Human Rights Commission for the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Human Rights Watch has already issued a statement in regard to the trial. This trial was -- it's called special security court. It's a semi-military court. They have removed the military judge to appease the West so Turkey can get acceptance of this. But this trial was decided before Mr. Ocalan ever stepped into the courtroom. The trial was -- first of all, Mr. Ocalan was arrested and for ten days he could not see a lawyer. And when he was allowed to see a lawyer, it was one hour at a time, twice a week, never alone with his lawyers. He was placed alone on the island with no one to contact with -- just like Mr. Mandela initially when they emptied the Robben Island and they put him in the island. It's a similar situation. Mr. Ocalan is not a terrorist. Mr. Ocalan was a leader of his people. He led a movement against oppression, and Mr. Ocalan's death will not end the problem in Turkey. The Kurdish problem will continue so long as the Kurds are oppressed and denied their national rights. MARGARET WARNER: Do you want to respond further on whether it was a just trial? Even the State Department spokesman Jamie Rubin raised some of these questions. SABRI SAYARI: You heard the State Department spokeman saying that this was a fair trial. There was also - MARGARET WARNER: I'd just point out he also did say they had concerns about the detention and the lack of access to the lawyer.
MARGARET WARNER: The reaction of the Kurds today, Dr. Karim, both in Turkey and in Europe, there have been protests. But compared to the reaction at his capture, it's been pretty temperate. How do you explain that? DR. NAJMALDIN KARIM: I explain that by two factors. First, the Kurds expected the death sentence would be handed to Mr. Ocalan. So, people were prepared for this verdict. It was a foregone conclusion. Second, I believe the people, the Kurds in Europe and in Turkey, have listened to Mr. Ocalan's call for peace. And I think they are still hoping that that message will get through to the Turkish government, and they will come to realize that without a peaceful solution to the Kurdish problem in Turkey, this disaster and catastrophe will continue. MARGARET WARNER: So in other words, they're waiting to see whether he really is executed or not or whether there's another course taken?
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| Appealing the verdict. | ||||||||||||||
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SABRI SAYARI: Well, that remains to be seen. It's a very lengthy process, appeal process; first appeal courts in Turkey. Then it will go to the parliament. Then the Turkish president has a right to ratify it. Then, of course, he has the right, like all Turkish citizens to appeal to the European Human Rights Court. In the sense, that court oversees a great deal of trial verdicts of this type and over 2000 Turkish citizens have appealed there and have received some verdict. So he will -- his lawyers probably will appeal to Strasberg for that. MARGARET WARNER: That's where the European parliament sits.
MARGARET WARNER: Do you think many European leaders also called on Turkey not to impose the death penalty. Does the EU at this point have much leverage with the Turkish government? SABRI SAYARI: It has some but obviously it doesn't have much. I think the EU's leverage vis-a-vis Turkey has been diminished greatly because of its reluctance to consider Turkey's application for full membership. And I think had the EU behaved differently on that issue, it might have carried much greater weight today than it actually does. MARGARET WARNER: So, our Kurdish hopes for not imposing this death penalty, do they rest with thinking Europeans will be putting pressure on Turkey or on what? DR. NAJMALDIN KARIM: Well, our hope rests with the fact that Turkey will come to the realization that executing Mr. Ocalan will not end the problem in Turkey, that the cycle of violence will continue, the Kurds will continue to resist oppression, deportation, execution and denial of their political and national rights. We're hoping a courageous leader will come to Turkey like Mr. Ozal came in 1991. MARGARET WARNER: The Turk president. DR. NAJMALDIN KARIM: The former president. The Turks for 70 years denied there were even Kurds in Turkey. Finally, Mr. Ozal came and said, yes, we have Kurds, we have 12 million Kurds - and, by the way, our numbers have increased since then. |
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| A solution to the Kurdish problem? | ||||||||||||||
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MARGARET WARNER: Explain briefly to an American audience, what would it take on the part of the Turkish government to quell Kurdish unrest?
MARGARET WARNER: One, do you think that's possible? And, two, do you think there's a chance that the Kurdish government or the parliament will take Ocalan's offer at face value?
This is a total fabrication. I go to Turkey all the time. Kurdish can be heard all over the place -- in the markets and the stores. It is not the official language of Turkey and many countries in the world have official languages, and this in this country as well. So, the issue is not really the language -- speaking your language freely. As far as publication, there are lots of publications in Kurdish, journals, periodicals that come out. The problem there is they don't sell because many of the Kurds don't seem to be interested in reading these journals. So I think the issue of cultural rights is being used as a propaganda mechanism. As far as political rights, over one third of the Turkish parliament is made up the deputies of Kurdish origin. And these people freely say that they're Kurds. So I think in that respect some measure of greater sensitivity should be shown to these kind of charges against Turkey. Now, as far as Mr. Ocalan's offer, I think Mr. Ocalan has really lost his role in this whole affair. His statements in the trial has disillusioned many of his followers because they were expecting a very heroic gesture. That doesn't seem to have happened. There is disillusion until the ranks. So there has to be a new force a new interlocutor, if you will, between Turkish officials and the Kurdish groups in Turkey. I think PKK really has lost its chance. MARGARET WARNER: You think it's time for someone else to step in here? DR. NAJMALDIN KARIM: Well, I was in Europe, in Rome, in December. I met Mr. Ocalan; I asked him that specific question. Because he offered peace, he offered -- before he was arrested and he was ready to have the Turkish government negotiate with any Kurd. I welcome Mr. Sayari's statement about recognizing that there is a problem and there is a need for negotiation between the Kurds and the Turks. Thank you. MARGARET WARNER: I think we have agreement on that. Thank you both very much. |
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MARGARET
WARNER: For more on the verdict and what it means, we get two views.
Sabri Sayari is executive director of Georgetown University's Institute
of Turkish Studies. He was born in Turkey and is now a U.S. citizen.
DR.
NAJMALDIN KARIM: Well, this outcome clearly was expected. No one was
surprised that the death penalty will be handed on Mr. Ocalan. And I'd
like just to remind the viewers and yourself that today is the anniversary
of the execution by the Turkish government of Sheikh Said in 1925, and
it's no coincidence that the verdict was scheduled for today. 
SABRI
SAYARI: Well, I think the verdict is a just verdict; the trial was a
just trial. I think this brings at least most of the victims of Ocalan's
terrorism to some degree of closure. There has been a great deal of
emotional outbursts in Turkey as a result of this ruthless campaign
of violence and terrorism that has been waged by Mr. Ocalan and his
fellow terrorists in the PKK organization. 
SABRI
SAYARI: Last week on June 21st, observers from Council of Europe issued
a report saying that this was a fair trial. Of course, this was a trial
that was conducted under extraordinary circumstances. And we have seen
in the past even governments like Britain have had special provisions,
special legislation, special trials dealing with terrorism is not going
to be "very normal process." 
DR.
NAJMALDIN KARIM: I believe if he was to be executed, you will have bloodshed
and the cycle of violence will continue. 
MARGARET
WARNER: Do you think, and we described the appeals process that's going
to take place and it's really going into the political arena now, do
you think he'll ultimately be executed? 
SABRI
SAYARI: Right. European parliaments, human rights court sits. So my
hunch is this process is going to take at least a year and a half or
two. And at the end of it, we're not sure what will happen. 
DR.
NAJMALDIN KARIM: Recognize the Kurds are a distinct group within Turkey,
allow them to practice their language, practice their culture, allow
them broadcasting in Kurdish, allow them publication in Kurdish, allow
them political assimilation and full participation in the democratic
process when it comes into existence in Turkey. 
SABRI
SAYARI: Well, let me first say something about what has just been said,
namely the situation of cultural and political rights of the Kurds.
For example, this issue is always emphasized that Kurds in Turkey cannot
speak their own language.