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| HANAN ASHRAWI | |
 October 31, 2000  |
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Ray Suarez talks with Palestinian spokeswoman Hanan Ashrawi as part of the NewsHour's series of discussions on the Middle East.
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We were told that the Israelis had come further than any previous Israeli government. How did we get from those images from Camp David to the ones we see today coming from the West Bank? HANAN ASHRAWI: Well, that tells you how images can be misleading, because the question is not one of personalities or friendships or amicable relations. It's a question of dealing with the substance and with the issues. And to go to Camp David without sufficient preparations to have a summit, knowing that Barak had gone to that summit with his notorious five no's: No to the 1967 boundaries; no to the returning Jerusalem to the Palestinians; no to the right of return of the refugees; no to boundaries, and so on. So he came with his red lines, as he calls them -- we call them notorious no's-- and wanted to pressure, persuade, bring the peace process to a unilateral conclusion with these four no's that violate the terms of reference, that violate Palestinian rights, that violate international law, and at the same time are directly antithetical to the requirements of a just peace. And in a sense, all that's lost in the peace process have backfired and are now openly and tragically exposed. RAY SUAREZ: But if the parties... if both parties understood after a time that this would not lead to where either of you wanted to get, did it necessarily have to end in the kind of violence that we see now? |
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And to the Palestinians, it became a punitive instrument. It became extremely painful with ongoing settlement activities, ongoing land confiscation, ongoing state of siege, house demolitions. And so - and life under the peace process-- I wouldn't say peace, because it's a process-- became much more difficult and painful to the Palestinians than it was even before that. So it's been a cumulative process, an erosion of confidence, erosion of support, a sense of deep victimization and grievance. And then when Sharon, you know, decided to have his incursion into the Haram al-Sharif, all he did was ignite the spark willfully and deliberately and cynically. And we see such a tragic loss of life. And instead of saying, okay, we will not turn this into a military operation, Barak resorted to his military mentality as a general and decided to shoot, using live ammunition, shooting innocent Palestinian civilians. RAY SUAREZ: Would you not concede that there were people on the other side all along who were also using live fire pointed at Israeli soldiers? HANAN ASHRAWI: Well, first of all, the people in Haram al-Sharif who were killed were entirely unarmed, and they were shot in cold blood. Then to pull out, you know, no- holds-barred: Helicopter gunships, tanks, missiles, live ammunition, high-velocity bullets, sniper fire, and daily... daily kill Palestinians who are protesting on their own land, on our own... in our own villages and towns. All we want is for the Israeli army to leave us, to leave us alone, for the occupation to leave. It's a very simple equation. You cannot enter other people's lands, take away their lands, take away their freedom, take away their livelihood, their dignity. Every basic right that we have has been entirely negated and undermined. And then they complain if we say we want the occupation out. Now there was no reason for Barak to use live ammunition, for the… army to shoot Palestinians, who are Israeli citizens, and there was no reason to clamp down another stage of multiple siege and then claim that they are not good little boys and girls who sit back and die quietly or accept this kind of horror and violence without even symbolically trying to defend ourselves. It's clear where the violence comes from. The occupation is the most ruthless, pervasive form of violence and violation, and that's what we have to deal with. Not a civilian population that wants to be free on its own land and in its own dignity.
HANAN ASHRAWI: That's what we're saying. People should not die, young people, old people, babies, children. We've had infants killed. This is entirely unacceptable. It's entirely immoral. It is painful. It is tragic. And we are not numbers. We are not... I mean, close to 150 people have been killed, Palestinians, mainly children also, and people in their own homes. It's just incredible. But the thing is, if it was entirely up to us, then we would say, fine, let's disengage. The Israelis go back to Israel and let us live on our own land." The problem is that it is the Israeli army that is there. And every day there are funerals. And we have thousands, over 6,000 people, Palestinians, who have been shot and probably permanently impaired. And we have to deal with that as well. We haven't finished dealing with the tragic results of the earlier Intifada. We still have people who need special treatment. But this... I mean, you're asking the victim to sit back and to accept the worst kind of violence that is inflicted on us and not even to show some spirit, some backbone. This is a popular uprising. This is a collective spirit. This is the will of the people saying, we will not accept this type of victimization again. |
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RAY SUAREZ: Well, let's look forward from where we are right now. The parties had agreed to stand down at Sharm el-Sheikh, that deadline came and went. What do you see happening from here on out? Is there a future to the peace process?
Two, where do we go from here. There certainly is no status quo… to go back to, because, you know, all hell has broken loose where we live. And I don't think that you can assume a business-as-usual stance when it comes to the peace process, because it's the built-in flaws in the peace process that have led to this. It's the continual and ongoing targeting of Palestinians, even within the peace process. RAY SUAREZ: So any progress made, you know, over the last decade through Oslo, all the way to Camp David, perhaps... that we're all going to start from square one now? HANAN ASHRAWI: I'll tell you, no. The peace process itself in a way self-negated because no single agreement was honored completely. No single timetable was adhered to. No single commitment was implemented -- either on time or fully. There was constant, constant haggling, delays, postponements. And in the meantime, Israel would annex more land, confiscate more land, build more settlements. Barak moved more settlements than Netanyahu. So I think it is time to take stock. It is time for the U.S. and for Israel to understand that it is in the strategic interests of the U.S., it is in the long-term interests of Israel if it wants to be accepted in the region to stop victimizing the Palestinians. We may be weak objectively, but we have equal rights like everybody else.
How come when it comes to the Palestinians, we have to relinquish those rights, and we have to be made to sign an agreement, which will only lead to further conflict -- time not just to heal, but to take stock -- maybe to formulate a peace process that will take into account the fact that Israel has to be accountable as a country, we have to be protected as a people, and that international law has to prevail, and that American long- term interests have to be translated into a strategic, responsible, even-handed view of what is needed in peace, rather than narrow, short-term elections, votes, or campaign funds. This issue deals with our lives, with our children, with the future. And either there's a responsibility and the courage, the integrity and the willingness to abide by international law, to create a just peace, or we cannot be punished by a punitive peace process, which is unjust and that will prepare the grounds for perpetual conflict. I think this is what is needed. There is still time. We can still talk about a two- stage solution if there is wisdom and courage on the other side. RAY SUAREZ: Dr. Ashrawi, thanks for joining us. HANAN ASHRAWI: Thank you. It's my pleasure. |
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RAY
SUAREZ: With me is Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Legislative
Council representing Jerusalem and a former minister of higher education.
She's often a spokeswoman for the Palestinian Authority.
HANAN
ASHRAWI: Certainly not. I think if Israel had set the mentality of occupier,
the sort of distortions, the racist mentality of occupation that somehow
seems to give the impression that you have the right to enslave a whole
nation, to dictate to the other side, to take away their land, their
freedom, to create a powder keg situation and then complain once the
powder keg explodes. What happened was that Barak and Israeli governments
then took the peace process as an instrument of power. 
RAY
SUAREZ: But since the dying began, it's been pointed out again and again
that Palestinians are doing most of the dying; the death toll now over
100. Being the 89th mortality or the 95th mortality does not or doesn't
seem to be getting Palestinians any closer to where they want to be.
Isn't there a point at which in your own camp people say, we have to
stand down just so our own young people don't die anymore?
HANAN
ASHRAWI: Yeah, well Sharm el-Sheikh called on both sides -- creating
an artificial symmetry between oppressor and victim. But President Arafat
issued two statements. However, people do not behave like a regimented
army. It's Barak that has to order his army, that should take orders,
that should be disciplined, that should withdraw from our land. So anyway,
that's one thing. 
We
will not give up our land. We have already relinquished more than 78
percent of historical Palestine. This is the minimum. We need our own
land returned to us, the territory occupied in 1967. But the causes
of the conflict have to be addressed. Jerusalem has to be returned.
The refugees have the right to return. They cannot be totally deprived
of the protection of the law, which protects other people.