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| RENEWED VIOLENCE | |
 October 2, 2000  |
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After a background report, Khalil Jahshan of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee and David Makovsky of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy discuss the outbreak of violence between Israelis and Palestinians.
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MARGARET WARNER: David Makovsky, do you see it that way, that the Sharon visit really was just the spark that lit this?
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KHALIL JAHSHAN: I don't think so. I think typical of the last uprising, the main uprising, that produced the peace process back in '87. I mean, people kept saying that -- as if Arafat has some kind of remote control and with the push of a button he can move, you know, 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to the street. That's not the case. These are genuine feelings, genuine frustrations that are being expressed day in, day out, particularly over the past five days. And one cannot honestly simplify things by saying, all we have to do is blame a call to arms or to Jihad by either Arafat or some kind of a pulpit minister here or there, or even by Sharon. There are some genuine frustrations on the part of the Palestinians. The peace process has not brought home the peace dividend that the Palestinians had been promised ten years ago. MARGARET WARNER: But are you saying you think Yasser Arafat has no control over the situation? KHALIL JAHSHAN: I don't think he has total control. Nobody has total control. Certainly Yasser Arafat is the Palestinian leader and he is in charge of the Palestinian authority and has a constituency of some 30 or 35 percent of the Palestinians who support him. But I doubt that these types of uprisings can be either started or stopped automatically by Yasser Arafat or anybody else. DAVID MAKOVSKY: Can I - MARGARET WARNER: Yes, please. DAVID MAKOVSKY: Just for a second, because Marwan Bargouti heads Mr. Arafat's own Fatah Party. It would be like the Democratic Party is Mr. Clinton's party, and when Mr. Bargouti says openly on the record, yes, that we did this in all these different places, we're not talking about Hamas, Islamic militants who are Mr. Arafat's rivals. This is his own party and that's the source of concern, because it raises issues of trust, like how do you resolve issues peacefully if the other side could always resort to violence? There's just no excuse for violence. But I agree with Khalil that there's genuine passions, and that's why we have to go back to the table and work towards a peace deal, because I fear if we don't, if we push these issues under the rug, the violence will get worse. So don't get me wrong. I'm not ignoring Khalil's point of real passions. My fear is, though, how these passions are being exacerbated by people like Mr. Bargouti of Mr. Arafat's own Fatah Party. MARGARET WARNER: Now, what about Prime Minister Barak's role and responsibility here -- do you think -- one, do you think the Israelis overreacted? Do you think he could stop the violence? |
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KHALIL JAHSHAN: I don't think he could stop the violence either -- on the country. I'm afraid Mr. Barak is in a serious predicament as we all know, politically. And I have a feeling that the situation is going to give him a way to rehabilitate himself. I mean, the intensity of the Israeli reaction, as your report described, resorting to unprecedented levels of violence bringing in helicopters, bringing in tanks and so on, I mean, all this is an attempt by Mr. Barak to rehabilitate himself. MARGARET WARNER: You're talking about politically? KHALIL JAHSHAN: Of course, politically. And appealing basically to the radical elements in Israel that he is not the wimp that they have perceived over the past few months trying to sell Israel down the drain, and to give the shop to the Palestinians. MARGARET WARNER: David, how do you see it?
KHALIL JAHSHAN: If that's not overwhelming, I'm not sure what overwhelming is, David. Come on. DAVID MAKOVSKY: Well, but the point is, that this violence has to stop, Mr. Barak has been calling Mr. Arafat for what, three days now, asking him please use whatever you can to stop, we will stop. This is not a political maneuver by Barak. I think you know, Khalil, that Mr. Barak has bet the whole ranch, his whole political fortune and his own life, frankly, given the concessions he wants to make in Jerusalem. He's putting his own life on the line in this peace agreement. To suggest that he's somehow hedging his bets by doing this, I think, is outrageous. MARGARET WARNER: David Makovsky -- DAVID MAKOVSKY: And, therefore, we have to think of a way to get back to the table. MARGARET WARNER: But do you think, given the escalating violence, the deaths and also the fact that there's much heavier fire power on both sides, do you think this could, this is the beginning of a major conflagration? DAVID MAKOVSKY: Yeah, there's the chance, I mean both sides have to look over the abyss and see that they have to pull back. And I think clearly Barak wants to do it, maybe Mr. Arafat wants to do it, I hope Khalil is right. But let's put it this way. If they don't reach a solution on issues like Jerusalem and the holy sites, then I fear a political conflict of the last 50 years is going to spill over into an uncontrollable religious war. This doesn't serve anybody. And therefore it was regrettable to me that when there's been all these ideas, how do we share the Temple Mount, it's Mr. Arafat says no, no, no, no. And that sort of approach will bring us to deadlock, not to a breakthrough. MARGARET WARNER: There are people on the ground who are also using the term war. Do you think that's in fact where this could head? |
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KHALIL JAHSHAN: It has the potential to do so, not in the sense of a conventional war. I don't think most Arab countries have for all practical purposes resigned the Arab Israeli conflict. But - as David just said -- you have the potential here for some serious deterioration into some sort of a religious-based conflict between radicals on both sides. And what is happening is not just a simple clash here. When you talk about 47 Palestinians killed thus far in the past five days, it's important for your viewers to realize, this is the equivalent of 3,000 Americans killed, shot on the streets of the United States in five days. You're talking about 1,000 injuries. This is the equivalent of 86,000 people shot people and injured in five. So the Palestinian society now is in a very, very serious turmoil and turbulence as a result of this reaction. Certainly they are shocked by the intensity and the speed with which this Intifada has taken place, but they are also angered by the intensity of these Israeli reactions. MARGARET WARNER: All right. David Makovsky, what is it going to take to stop the violence? I've just received word that Madeleine Albright, the Secretary of State, is now going to meet in Paris with, she hopes, I guess, Mr. Barak and Mr. Arafat on Wednesday. But, I mean, can the international community do anything? What will it take? DAVID MAKOVSKY: Yeah, okay. First, the most basic thing that would stop the killing like this would be if Mr. Arafat would go on Voice of Palestine Radio and Palestine television and say I urge you, everyone, stay home, don't join the mobs in the street and don't foment violence. His personal word would speak volumes, point one. Point two, I think Madeleine Albright is right to make the last push to bring the sides together. There's a deadline at the end of October, the Israeli parliament reconvenes and Mr. Barak could be toppled by critics who question long term Palestinian intentions, and unfortunately this violence only fuels that. So with very little time and there has to be a way to think of compromise ideas, on the issue of Jerusalem, and the remaining points of Camp David. It would just be a horrible tragedy that at the very moment that peace seemed within grasp, within hairs away, this conflict is kind of reverting back to a primordial religious state. We've come so long after 50 years, now is the time to close the deal and not to rip it apart. MARGARET WARNER: What do you think it will take it to stop it? Is there any chance that Arafat would do what David Makovsky just suggested? KHALIL JAHSHAN: We might be kind of past this point. I think what needs to be done right now within that limited window of opportunity left is for the administration to put on the table in a courageous manner and a moral manner, which has been missing thus far, some serious American ideas to bridge the gap between the two sides. Ideas that are based on international legitimacy, and that once and for all, over the past 52 years these issues we have not dealt with straightforward -- the issue of refugees, the issue of Jerusalem, the issue of the settlement. All these issues have to be reconciled in a straightforward manner, in a fair manner that caters both to the national interest of the Palestinian people and the national interest of Israel. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Thank you both very much. |
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MARGARET
WARNER: To explore what's behind the violence, and what can be done
to stop it, we turn to Khalil Jahshan, vice president of the American-Arab
Anti- Discrimination Committee, and David Makovsky, senior fellow at
the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. He's the former executive
editor of The Jerusalem Post, and diplomatic correspondent for
the Ha'aretz newspaper in Israel.
KHALIL
JAHSHAN: Well, as you just mentioned, certainly there were provocations
this time; of course the latest one was the visit by Mr. Sharon to Haram
as-Sharif, in which the Israelis call the Temple Mount, at this crucial
time, at this particular time. But really the reason for this uprising,
renewed uprising, is built up frustrations over the past ten years,
as a matter of fact -- but particularly since the latest Camp David
where we have a typical frustration of rising expectations. People were
anticipating some kind of agreement. The Palestinians faced a lot of
pressures -- a humiliating pressure forcing the Palestinian side to
postpone once again Palestinian statehood, and nothing has happened.
So the situation was tense and everybody knew that it's going to take
only a tiny little kind of incident of some sort or provocation of some
sort to break the camel back and that's what happened, I think, with
Sharon's visit to Haram as-Sharif. 
DAVID
MAKOVSKY: Yeah, I don't think the Sharon visit was useful. It should
be pointed out that Sharon's visit ended peacefully. But then what happened
was a series of events where Mr. Arafat's Fatah Tanzim started clashes
it seems like in 20 different locations; there was stoning of the Wailing
Wall, the Jewish holy site. So, yes, there was a lot of sensitivity
at this juncture and therefore I think Sharon's visit was not helpful.
But I think you got to look at everything else that was going on and
what seems to be used, once there are official Palestinian forces are
involved it seems that it was used to help improve Mr. Arafat's negotiating
position at a very sensitive juncture -- believing somehow clashes will
improve the bargaining position. So I think there was genuine passion,
I think it was real. But I think there was fuel that was doused by flames,
by the Palestinian officialdom. I think that's regrettable.
MARGARET
WARNER: That is a question, Mr. Jahshan, that -- in effect -- Sharon
said he thought this was preplanned by Arafat all along. I mean, is
this being sanctioned and in some way encouraged by the Palestinian
leadership?
DAVID
MAKOVSKY: Oh, I refer to your own ITN setup piece that you just had,
that Israel has avoided using overwhelming force. 