ON A COLLISION COURSE? November 3, 1997 NEWSHOUR TRANSCRIPT

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Over the past week, Saddam Hussein has tested the U.S. and United Nations Security Council by warning that the routine United Nations inspection plane should not fly over Iraq. The U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., Bill Richardson, discusses the international reaction, and warns that military action is not out of the question.

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A RealAudio version of this segment is available. NEWSHOUR LINKS: September 10, 1996 A discussion with two Iraq experts in the U.S.. September 4, 1996 A group of experts discuss Saddam Hussein's decision to send troops in the Kurdish Safe Haven. Online Forum: 1996: The plight of the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of the Middle East. OUTSIDE LINKS United Nations International Atmoic Energy Agency

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: First tonight, another standoff between Iraq and the United Nations and United States. The issue, again, is U.N. inspections of Iraqi weapons programs. We start with some background from Tom Bearden.

TOM BEARDEN: The latest round of tension was sparked last week when Iraq refused to allow Americans on the United Nations weapons inspections team to continue their work. The Iraqis then set a Wednesday deadline for all American inspectors to leave the country. The move was immediately denounced by the United States and other nations on the U.N. Security Council.

SPOKESMAN: This is another case of Saddam Hussein shooting himself in the foot. The point here is that all members of the United Nations Security Council are united in demanding Iraqi compliance with this special commission.

The legacy of the Gulf War.

TOM BEARDEN: Iraq has been subject to international inspections since the end of the Gulf War in 1991. The inspections were part of a program of sanctions and other measures designed to force the elimination of Iraq's nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs. But Iraq frequently evaded the inspections, which led to confrontation, and in two instances U.S. military action, including Cruise Missile attacks on Iraqi military facilities in January of 1993. As recently as last month the chief U.N. inspector reported that Iraq is continuing to hide information on biological arms and is also withholding some data on chemical weapons and missiles. Under the terms of the agreement ending the Persian Gulf War the sanctions against Iraq cannot be removed until U.N. investigators, now headed by Australian diplomat Richard Butler, certify Iraq has eliminated all weapons of mass destruction. Today Iraq turned back a United Nations weapons inspection team that included one American. Butler condemned the latest Iraqi move.

RICHARD BUTLER: We will continue. What Iraq has done is illegal; it's wrong. The Security Council says so. We're not going to lie down and take that in the face of something that is clearly wrong.

TOM BEARDEN: But hours later Iraq accepted U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's proposal that a three-member U.N. mission go to Baghdad. Diplomats from Algeria, Sweden, and Argentina are already on route. Annan insists the mission is not to negotiate but to seek Iraqi compliance. The United States has also insisted Iraq comply to its U.N. resolutions and has pointedly refused to rule out military force. But other members of the Security Council, particularly Russia, have said they oppose military force. Today Iraq demanded the cancellation of flights by American U-2 spy planes over the country and warned they could be shot down by Iraqi anti-aircraft fire. Iraqi U.N. envoy Mizar Habdoon said in light of the current developments and as happened at previous times, Iraq expects a military aggression against it by the United States; therefore, the entry of an American spy plane into Iraq's skies cannot be accepted. Many Iraqis have demonstrated their support for Hussein in the streets of Baghdad.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And now a NewsMaker interview with the U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., Bill Richardson. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for being with us.

BILL RICHARDSON, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N.: Thank you for having me, Elizabeth.

Is the crisis escalating?

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Going into the Security Council session, is this crisis escalating?

BILL RICHARDSON: Oh, it's escalating. It showing that Saddam Hussein is getting more excessive in its irresponsibility. The latest incident is that he is now stating that the U-2 plane, which the United Nations plane that conducted--should not fly. That's another direct frontal assault on the United Nations and the Security Council, and the work of the U.N. inspection team.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And will the U-2 flight be canceled?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, this is the work of the United Nations. This is the work of the U.N. inspection team. It's very important that this flight take place. This is a flight that has a very important mission, and what Saddam Hussein was trying to do is not just hamper the work of the inspectors on the ground by picking and choosing who can and who can't inspect, but now he's dealing with the essential technological mission of the U.N. inspection team. He's making it impossible for them to do their work. He's defying the international system--backfiring on him, but you never know where this guy is going to go next.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Mr. Ambassador, explain why it's so important from your point of view that the Americans be allowed to be part of the inspection team.

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, first of all, this is a U.N. inspection team. It's not an American inspection team. And Saddam Hussein should not have the right to pick and choose who conducts the inspections. Who's going to be next? The British because they voted against him in the Security Council. He is showing total favoritism, politicizing the mission, of defying the international system. He's had a pattern of continuing to hide biological weapons, deny access to many of the inspection team, block essential work by, for instance, those involved in some of the inspection. And lastly, he is making by this incident with the U-2 plane virtually impossible for the U.N. inspection team to do its work consistent with U.N. Security Council resolutions after the Gulf War.

Saddam Hussein tests the international system periodically.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Why do you think this is happening now?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, this happens periodically. Saddam Hussein tests the international system. He's testing whether the alliance, the Security Council is going to be united, and he has united the Security Council besides the fact that the Security Council has kept sanctions on Iraq because they have not complied--all of the resolutions relating to the end of the Gulf War. He feels that perhaps because there was some abstentions in the Security Council last week these were just practical differences; these weren't differences in policy that he wants to test the coalition; but what you see now is France and Russia making very strong statements that Saddam Hussein should cease and desist; that what he is doing is totally unacceptable; and he's once again uniting the international community against us. It's backfiring on him but this is a man that doesn't seem to know what is sane and what is politically correct to do, and he's just shooting himself in the foot more and more times.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Friends in Russia have said that this should cease; that he should allow the Americans inspections, but they've also said they wouldn't support a military option, is that right? Doesn't that make it a little hard to pressure Saddam Hussein?

The Security Council tries to build an unified front against Hussein.

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, I think that when you reach a stage of decision-making within the allies, within the Security Council, it's very important that we put incremental pressure on Saddam Hussein; that we give diplomacy a chance to work; that we make sure that France and Russia, who have been very supportive, continue to feel that within the Security Council there's going to be perhaps a solution. It could be that Saddam backs off after these envoys go to Baghdad and read 'em the riot act. These envoys are not negotiating; they're simply saying you've got to comply with Security Council resolutions. You've got to comply with the presidential statement of the Security Council of last week that said that the inspection should reopen and be fully unimpeded; that this is essential work of the U.N.. What Saddam is doing is attacking the international system. He's just not attacking the United States. He's attacking the Security Council of the United Nations, and all law-abiding nations.

A military response?

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: If the envoys who are going are not able to get any kind of a backing off, would there be a timetable within which something has to happen, or something like military options would be taken?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, we have not ruled out anything, including a military response, but what is clear here is that we first have to see how these envoys work. The United Nations Security Council has to act united, and we're heading in that direction. Forms of incremental pressure involving the Security Council will probably happen if the mission fails. What happens next we have to discuss with our allies, but China is now present in the Security Council. They play a key role. France, Russia, Great Britain our allies--the British and us are a hundred per cent in sync, as are the French and Russians on this at this time. But there are ten other members in the Security Council, all of whom have supported us in our efforts to demonstrate to Saddam Hussein that he is violating the international system.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: When you say incremental pressure, what do you mean?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, the Security Council has a variety of resolutions that can be taken that range from what are called presidential statements to condemnations to tough actions, to sanctions, to a number of options that we will have to weigh jointly with some of our allies, and in those options nothing is ruled out.

What is the U.N.'s true goal in Iraq?

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Let me go back a minute to why this is happening now. As you know, Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz has said that Iraq is doing this because as long as America's involved with the weapons inspections that Iraq can never comply enough because the real goal he says is to overthrow Saddam Hussein, not to get compliance. How do you respond to that?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, that's totally false. That's a consistent pattern of deception that the Iraqis have used. Richard Butler, the head of the U.N. inspection team, an Australian, Rolf Ekeus, a Swede, previously headed the U.N. inspection team, have documented clear patterns of violations on biological weapons, on many other weapons of mass destruction, obstructing the work of the inspectors, hiding the weapons. They must have something to hide. So, again, that is not a justification because the inspection team is multi-national. They're technicians; they're scientists; they're doing their work, and right now they're prevented from doing so by once again Saddam Hussein pushing the envelope, showing how irresponsible he is, and testing the will of the alliance and testing the Security Council, and it's not working for him.

Do the Iraqis have a lethal nerve gas?

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The London Observer, newspaper, reported today that inspectors were on the verge of finding a very and especially lethal nerve gas, and that that's why this is happening. Is there any truth to that?

BILL RICHARDSON: Well, it could be that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis have something to hide, as ugly as that report may be, Richard Butler, the head of the inspection team, may answer this question in the days ahead. It could be that they're hiding something. I don't have that documented but what the Iraqis have shown is clear patterns of obstruction, of hiding weapons, of denying access to inspectors, especially in the biological weapon area.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: When you said that Saddam Hussein had made a big mistake and you were referring especially to the way that the alliance is responding now, tell us more about that. There had been--it seems some people called this sanctions fatigue, I think, some of the countries saying that they wished sanctions could end for various reasons, humanitarian, or because they wanted to do business, what about now, has that changed?

BILL RICHARDSON: I don't believe it's changing, Elizabeth. When there were some abstentions on the last sanctions review issue, these were tactical differences, how do you define compliance; who, for instance, if there are travel sanctions, gets denied access from the Iraqi government?

We have renewed sanctions on Iraq. What we were talking about then were additional sanctions. And the Security Council has 15 members. It's not just the permanent five. And we've always had a coalition of 10 countries wanting strong sanctions and additional sanctions, so what is happening here is that the French and the Russians have made very strong statements, pushing Saddam to pull back.

What has also happened is the United Nations Security Council in the last week has passed a number of resolutions urging support for the team to reopen, finding ways to condemn Saddam Hussein, urging that the inspectors be treated properly, they not be harassed. The secretary general has weighed in very strongly with a mission that is going to go there and basically define for Saddam Hussein what it means that he has to do, and that is he has got to comply with the U.N. resolutions; he has got to find a way to pull back; he has got to find a way to literally totally back off. There is no negotiation.

We made this clear, that we supported this mission only--only if there were no negotiations; if they were there basically to read Saddam Hussein the riot act.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for being with us.

BILL RICHARDSON: Thank you, Elizabeth.

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