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| FATINA SHAKER | |
 January, 2002  | |
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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Please explain why we are finding some resistance to answering our questions here. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Well partly nobody could get in. People have been trying to get in for years and now we can get in. FATINA SHAKER: Isn't is surprising now, they are allowing you to come in? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: No, I think it's, I mean as I understand it, tell me if you think I'm wrong. I understand that they want us to be able to report on what's happening because they feel what's being reported hasn't been true or at least has been biased. FATINA SHAKER: Well yes it could be. You would think that a government which is coming under so much attack, probably would not allow people to come and report. On the other hand, it's a very intelligent move, "okay come and see for yourself." Now, if I could read the American mind again, is it (coming) here really to find out what is the mood after a 9/11? Is it, are you here -- not specifically you -- but the media or media personnel, are you here really to find out whether there is discontent, criticism, is it only to find out or to move, to activate, you know, any kind of criticism or discontent? Of course there's so many questions and because of these questions, you might find Saudis who could be critical of situations here, who could be analyzing problems we are having, which we've been talking about for years, okay? When you talk to them as an American journalist or broadcaster or whatever capacity you are, you might find them defensive and not willing to talk to you. Because it is this kind of resentment, you know. Why now? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes, but what's wrong with that? If 15 of 19 people that just knocked down the two trade towers and hit the Pentagon are Saudi and they seem unhappy about something, what's wrong with us wanting to find out? SHAKER There's nothing wrong. In a way I could appreciate that as really an objective, if I see it as a social scientist that you don't want to rely only on what the media there from their sitting there, and talking about Saudi Arabia, talking about the education problems, talking about this or that, and you want to find out for yourselves. You want to find out how really, how do the people feel? This is a very good sociological approach. Very objective. I appreciate that. But on the other hand, are you really moved, and here I'm talking generally to America and American policy, okay? Are you really moved because of that, only, that or because you feel that your national interests have been challenged? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But that's all the same thing. FATINA SHAKER: And the same situation has existed before, okay? Only 15 people who are involved or allegedly are involved because we don't what the facts is -- I don't really think that all the facts are out yet -- are from Saudi Arabia, okay? Now before the system as it is here, served your national interest. But now somehow we feel ourselves, it seems as if this system is not really serving your national interest any more, or challenging your national interest. So you are trying to find out. |
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| Roots of terrorism in Saudi Arabia | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes, it's scary to people. They want to know
whether there's going to be more Saudis that are coming in airplanes
to knock down the trade towers. That's understandable, isn't it? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Well I think it did when the Khobar towers came down and when people realized that Saudis were involved in taking down the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya but almost nobody could get in. It's just that we can finally get in. FATINA SHAKER: Okay, we come back to that point of the role model, which is sociologically very, very important. It really, it tells us that be aware of what role models young people are following. As you know, kids when they grow up they need heroes in their lives. They need role models in their lives. They look up to parents, they look up to teachers, you know? They look up to elders. Now, what's been happening probably in Saudi Arabia for those group of people and others, who they don't have to be hijackers, they don't have to really participate in the terrorist attacks, but they are there, you know, they are there. We should ask who are their role models. Probably the sheiks, okay, not the father anymore, not the teacher anymore, the religious sheik, so really we should look for that religious sheik. Not these kids. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But when we try, we can't talk to those sheiks. And when we talk to people here as you saw last night, they say no, it has nothing to do with Islam. It has nothing to do with a religious training. FATINA SHAKER: It probably doesn't have to do anything, it doesn't have to do anything with Islam. This is right, because Islam in essence, it's really a balanced religion. You've been hearing that. Islam is peaceful. Islam is really a very balanced religion and you know, terrorism comes from a fanatic. And fanaticism comes from really fear, from ignorance. Again, nobody could achieve that kind of terrorist act without being indoctrinated, you know. Young people are indoctrinated. When they are lost or they become so obsessed by the religion, they can do that blindly. You know, they can do all sorts of things blind, blindly. So again, we come back to that. Islam is not extremism and you've been hearing that over and again and I don't want to repeat it. It is the balance…and here the problem is -- yes, we have a problem. Probably, people will say we don't have a problem. Yes, we have a problem. And we don't realize that we have a problem only now because 9/11 happened and now because you are here and you are trying to find out. We've been saying this over the years. Look guys, responsible people, decision makers, we have problems in the education system, we have problems in the family system, we have problem in terms of religion that the middle Islam, the walls of the middle Islam has been silenced. Has not been heard. You know, when I was living in the States, I used to hear the term the silent majority, okay? Because I don't know whether it's majority, but silent, because the other voice, you know the, the conservative, okay? The conservative or even more than the conservative, these are the people who had the legitimacy to talk and they used religion as really a weapon. On everybody's head. On women and men. Especially the educated ones. Especially the ones who want to use their minds, who really want to develop the country, who have lived here and abroad, who are not afraid because their religion, their Islam is solid within, okay? But that group was really heard, was voiced, was strong. Now the government has realized that it has done wrong by really giving credit to And now as probably you have heard, the Crown Prince Abdullah has really come out on the TV and said, no extremism anymore. No extremism anymore. Now everybody's coming back to the middle. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Really? You think so. Because some people have said it's just form, but it's not really happening. FATINA SHAKER: No. Some of it is really happening, okay? Like what's happening, that original middle voice is coming out. This is good. This is good. If we are going to talk about positive coming out of the negative, light coming out of the dark, of course the price has been very high, very, very high. It should not have happened that way, but now the middle voice of Islam is really coming out and I hope real Islam and out of that I hope real understanding between west and east. Between Christians and Muslims, between Jews and Muslims. The three religions and other people as well would happen. Because lack of understanding comes from fear and ignorance, really. Okay, so this is one positive thing coming out. Some of the sheiks, probably that were not too much on that extreme, they are coming (out). All possibilities are there. Again some of the other extremes, some of the people who are on the other extreme, no religion, 'we don't want religion,' now they are realizing and they are coming back to the middle. So I guess this is one positive thing is really happening, and we need to capitalize on it, and now the government is encouraging that. Now the government is encouraging that. The government realizes that the extremist voice has been very active and it had to really held the development of the country back and it had embarrassed as well the government with the outside world. Everybody knows that Taliban had support from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan at the beginning, okay? In fact, the government is realizing now that it had given too much room for the conservative brand of Islam, the conservative voices of Islam to be heard on the account of the middle voice. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Instead of middle voice? FATINA SHAKER: Yeah instead of the middle voice. But then really, I
like to bring something else here to be able to understand how complex
it is. That conservative voice really started, it was there, but it
started to be heard during the '70s and the '80s, where we had the influx
to Saudi Arabia from other countries, of you know that, that voice of
Islam, that brand of Islam, the conservative, the extremist, the most
rigid. The narrow, you know, the one sided view of Islam and of life
and of how our relationship should be with the outside, especially the
west. You know, after the oil embargo, Saudi Arabia became so rich,
so much money. All of a sudden it was open to the outside world. We
needed experts. We needed companies. We needed teachers. The infrastructure
was being built. We needed to fill all these vacancies. So all of a
sudden, you know, Saudi Arabia was very exposed. During the discovery
of oil, ARAMCO was there. But farther away, secluded from contact with
Saudis. But now everything was there. So it's reasonable enough to expect
that people, especially on their religion or the religious people, ulema
or sheiks, they would become afraid and worried that you know, like
a small fish being worried to be swallowed by a bigger fish. But really,
as a Muslim, we shouldn't be afraid. If our faith is so strong, and
so rooted, we shouldn't be afraid because again, we come to middle Islam,
to balance Islam. Look at Islam 1000 years ago. Look at Islam in the
year 1000. Where it was and where we are now. FATINA SHAKER: Yes. My thesis was really on modernization in the developing countries, the case study of Saudi Arabia. So I had to talk about the development of Saudi Arabia as a country and in the beginning Saudi Arabia needed that intermarriage between religion and politics, between the teachings of Sheik Mohammad Abdul Wahhab and between al-Saud. At that stage, it was very, very important, okay? But as early as that, as early as that stage, when the extremist sheiks liberated Riyadh from the heretics, they liberated Mecca from the heretics, they wanted to cross the borders. They saw that their goals are much beyond than this area. When they tried to cross the borders, bloodshed. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The family, the Al-Saud family, stopped it? FATINA SHAKER: Of course. So really, and this is not new. The government realizing that they have crossed the borders. They are endangering their own existence. So many Saudis -- good minds -- have been excluded from development because of the extremist religion, the extremist voice of religion. You know, most of us women who were educated in the west, we were labeled. We were really labeled as you know, our religion was questioned. Some of the sheiks were talking about us in the mosque, you know but awe just kind of, kept going. So now the ball is in the government's -- what do they say? -- playground. Either they give credit to the middle voice to support the middle voice, to trust, to give more trust, to encourage more dialogue and not to fear dialogue. Some people would say "no, look at what happened the Shah of Iran, when he tried to open up, it was too much. (But) this is a different situation, entirely different situation. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Could you be, could you get in trouble for talking to us like this? FATINA SHAKER: I don't think so. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So the people who tell us they can't speak openly to us about these things are too afraid? You don't think they would get in trouble? FATINA SHAKER: I don't know, but I, I can speak only for myself from my past experiences. I have taught in university for 20 years, I am open. My book is open, see? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes. FATINA SHAKER: My book is open. I know my limits. If, if I have something critical to say, I know why I'm saying it, so it really depends. You know you have trust. And there's another problem here, not only in Saudi Arabia, but in the developing countries, in the Arab countries, the Muslim countries. It's not only the king. It's not only the Crown Prince. It's not only the minister. It's really the people around. So I guess this is one thing the government has to look at. The surrounding people, the bureaucrats around okay? They should really shake the bureaucracy. Because some of these people prevent honest, loyal people, open minded people, real Muslim people from getting to, and they really give an entirely different picture of reality to the responsible people. Everything is okay. You hear that. Everything is okay. We don't have problem. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: We've heard that. FATINA SHAKER: Yeah, everything's okay. Now, to me, this is really defeat. And this is lying and this is against religion and against national interest. Now if there is a problem, we should say that yes, there is a problem. As a Muslim, I will be judged by my God, whether I gave an honest advice to my boss or not. If I give a lie, if there is a problem and I say there is no problem, I will be judged. This is Islam, this is real Islam. So really, it's not only the higher, higher ups, the bureaucracy around, and I feel that it's just about time that bureaucracy should really be kind of cleaned up or shaken up or just the government has to be wise and open and selective and to trust its people. And to trust the middle voice of Islam and to open up for dialogue, religious dialogue between men and women, between educated, between parents, between teachers. I have written about this. Again, there is one point I want to say, and this is really important. We are not talking about problems or realizing that we are having problems only because 9/11 had happened. Go to the newspaper, the Saudi newspaper and read some of the articles, the columns written by women and by men. We've been talking for 20 or 25 years or 30 years about our education system, about the need to reevaluate our priorities. We've been talking about other problems, you know, whether they're in the family or in, in women's areas, and if we come to women. Now everybody's saying "women cannot drive, women cannot study engineering, or women have, have to wear the veil." That's not the issue. That's not really the issue. It's the whole family issue. Islam is a system. We cannot separate women. You cannot dissect my mind from my body. You cannot dissect my spirit from my mind. I, as a Muslim, I am a total. Holistic -- that's Islam. So it's the same thing. Islamic society is a whole. You cannot, you cannot dissect ruler from the ruled. We have to act as a team. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But wouldn't you like a little more freedom in this society? FATINA SHAKER: Well I need to see development. Freedom, this is a very sensitive, very edgy. Freedom from what to what? I don't mind covering my head, but don't cover my mind. Give me choices. Don't force me to work. Don't force me to stay at home. But give me that choice according to my situation, may family situation, my capabilities whether I like to work or to stay home to raise my kids and take care of my husband. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And you've had this freedom? FATINA SHAKER: I had. You know I was fortunate enough to have a family, to have a situation to have that freedom. But again, freedom is not given. You really have to really work for it. You cannot just sit and wait. |
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| Women in Saudi Arabia | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: To many American women, to see a woman completely covered, it's just almost proof that this must be a very repressive place, that any woman would have to go around that way. How do you respond to that? FATINA SHAKER: Well if I were not a Muslim, I would feel the same way. If I would see a woman covered totally in black, I would feel sorry for that woman and feel that way, but again, our reality here is very, very complex. It's really multi-layered, reality. When you see it just on the surface, of course you get that impression. Just go beyond a little bit, you will go to a second level of reality, a third, a fourth. People here, they don't show you everything at once. They are very kind and very emotional, but just, if they have that sense of trust, they would really uncover the veil and it's -- I don't mean the veil on the head -- no the veils that all of us, the masks that all of us wear. You will find people here slowly, slowly will take you know these masks off you know and show you their reality. So it's really multi-layered reality. And there's another important point. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You don't think the veil is, just by nature of its very existence repressive for women. I mean it's hard to see. You trip, you fall. Just the simplest things would be hard. FATINA SHAKER: There is a group of people who say we are only required to be decent in our clothes and we are not required to cover our hair. Another people would say -- no, no we are required to cover our hair and be decent you know in our looks. Some people who like to go on the conservative, the extreme side, they like to cover completely so, they chose, you know, they choose that to, to cover. Some people, they cover completely in and outside they are completely uncovered. And you come to a very important point here Elizabeth. Saudi Arabia is not a homogenous society. It's really a heterogeneous society. You know this is -- the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, it's really a unification of a different regions in Saudi. You have the al Hijaz. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Where we are right now, in Jeddah. FATINA SHAKER: And historically this was an urban place. Always, too, there was this movement in and out for, for commerce, for the pilgrimage, so it's easy for us Hijazis to be exposed to other cultures, to other people. In fact, it is really a composition of different cultures. You have the second part which is tribal. You have the eastern part, you have the central part, you know you have the northern part which is more closer to Jordan. So all of us, our reference is Muslims, all of us are Muslims. But we have with that framework within generic Islam we have different social customs, different family orientations, okay, and also different interpretation of what makes a person a good Muslim. Again, you have different interpretations of the human being, like, you know, conservative Islam or extremist Islam, they see the dark side of man. You know, they see fear, they see only the dark side that man has to be totally controlled. Now middle Islam sees the good and the bad. They see the strength and the weakness. And they give us the choice, you know, and the means to work on us, on ourselves as human beings. So again, the difference is not only in the outside, but how we see man from inside. And the more you go in that extreme, of course the more you would be oppressive to man. And here, unfortunately, women become the easy card to play around with. And this is again, wrong, this is not Islamic. Islam has never seen women as the source of vice. Extremism sees women as the source of vice. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Expand please on what you mean when you say it's an easy card to play..the woman card. You mean for somebody who is being extremely intolerant, they will play on people's irrational fears of women? Is that what you're saying? FATINA SHAKER: Yes, plus the fear of our women becoming so "free" quote unquote, "as western women". See this is the stereotype we have of other people: that freedom will mean just no traditions, no values, no whatever, whatever, OK? So, that fear is there (in some people, thinking): If we just give them just a little bit of freedom, they will take off without control, so they need to be under control. This is the extremist view. Again, as I said, because they see the dark side. I have another interpretation of why the religious people, the extremists, they focus on women. They couldn't talk about politics, so the next easy issue is women. Talk about women. |
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| The Israel issue and the Western response | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Does that apply to the whole issue of Israel and the Jews too? Is it a card to play too? If you can't talk about any political problem that might have caused these events, you just always talk about Israel. Everybody always wants to talk to us about Israel. FATINA SHAKER: Well, this is a different situation really, Elizabeth. This is different and it's really deep in our conscience. And that might explain some of the reaction to what happened in 9/11. To most of us Muslims, it's just intolerable. No rationalization for it. But on the other hand, personally, it's been confusing to me, in all honesty, I say. Because before that I've seen so much killing, so much terrorism against Muslims in different parts of the world. So really, the Palestinian issue is not really an easy card to play. It's a serious situation. It's a nation lost. Really, a nation lost. And again, it's making us really -- especially here in Saudi Arabia, and Muslims everywhere you know we've been having that love/hate relationship with the West. We aspire to so many nice values that you have achieved. We see some of the values you have achieved -- it's really Islamic values. Even, there is a saying, you know, people who go to the States and they find honest people, honest dealing, trust.. They say, 'oh my god, Islam without Muslims.' And here they say, 'Muslims without Islam.' We say this. When we encounter honesty, trust, love, care outside we say 'Islam without Muslims,' and here we say we have 'Muslims without Islam.' So, this has been confusing to us. The one-sided policy, American policy. It is so sad. It's very so sad. And it's really tarnishing our feelings, not only, our consciousness now being transformed. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Why are people being somewhat defensive right now. It's like a saying in English coming from our west that there's a circling of the wagons. Why? FATINA SHAKER: Well I guess we started the conversation by answering this question. People within themselves, they really are open somehow more than what they seem from the outside. I guess because of that mood, the 9/11, everybody is coming to find out after the 9/11. Again, probably the feeling that now our country is under attack, so we need to rally behind, you know, to be loyal. But I don't like to take that to the extreme , you know, being defensive. Again, it's an attitude. It's a socialization process, political socialization, family socialization, education socialization. This is the product of our education system. Our education system has not really helped our people to be creative, to be thinkers, to be self-critical. But again, some of these people have been educated in the West. But again, that explains the psychology there. I could be critical inside with my next door neighbor, but not with you as an American. Again, the fear that I don't know how it is going to be used. Extra fear that if I expose myself that probably I will be punished and this is really unfortunate. As I told you, I've been teaching for 20 years. I have been talked about here and there, but not real serious problem, you know. I have written in the newspaper. Lately, I have been stopped after 3 months of writing a daily column. I was not given any explanation, but nothing beyond that. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What did you write that made you stop? FATINA SHAKER: Really, I don't know, but I was told that some of the articles have just crossed the borders a little bit. Questioned some of the actions of parents, you know, that if we have problems with our youth, it's because of the families and the parents and the greed of the parents. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And the editor of Al Hayat was told not to let you write anymore? FATINA SHAKER: Yes, but I was not really told what was the reason, but this is a negative act. This is something which is very sad, you know, that you are stopped like that without being given any reason. I see myself as a responsible person. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Fatina, I would imagine that the social psychology of the hijackers would be of interest to you. Can you research that? I mean, if this were the U.S., as you know, when the assassinations have occurred or the Oklahoma City bombing, the newspapers for months analyzed the parents, the grandparents, the education, the philosophy, the writings of the people who do those things. Can you do the same thing here and try to find out about the 15 of the 19 hijackers that came from here? FATINA SHAKER: What do you mean? Can I do that as an individual? ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: As a journalist, or as a. -- Could you personally, if you wanted, do a research project? Has there been anything published about that? Could you go find out about it? FATINA SHAKER: Not yet, but again, this would lead us to another problem, which is a very serious problem here, that we don't have serious social research. We have good sociologists. We have good anthropologists. We have good psychologists, but we don't have public opinion surveys. On a very limited, or in secretive missions. You know, this ministry wants to know something and there is no cooperation between the different departments. But during the last 20 years, we should have had the best of social studies, but again we couldn't. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Why? FATINA SHAKER: Because, again you know, social studies, it touches upon social life, customs, tradition, religion, politics, you know, to have an objective research. Now, there always is the fear that don't expose, don't expose, don't expose. And this is one problem we are living with: That we are a Muslim society, that we think that we should represent ourselves as a perfect society. There is no such thing as a perfect society. Perfection is only for God, the creator. As human beings, we're not created to be perfect. We're created with all sorts of strengths, weaknesses, goodness and negativity, positivity. And our mission here is to really work that out. You reach the balance, but here you have a phobia of being exposed, you know, of admitting we have a problem and this is one of the main obstacles, you know. We have not advanced. So again, we come back to the question. I would love to as a social psychologist, even though I'm retired now for 3 years and my direction is a bit different. But if there is a committee to study that, if the government says 'OK, I'm going to form a committee to study that and I'm going to help with the data and give you freedom to move around, ask people, talk to families. And if I'm asked to do that as a member of the group, I would participate because it would be a duty. It would be a call and I cannot refuse the call. I want to say one more thing. Usually, you listen to people and say it's a hopeless case you know. There's too much problems, too much. What is the solution? And again, the solution is in the middle, the middle voice of Islam. Really, the solution comes back to the role model. This is very important. The only viable role model for Muslims is the prophet Mohammed. It's his life. We don't have time to go into details about that, but study his life. He's really the one who can give you the power to keep your roots, yet to fly away, to keep roots and to have wings to fly. So we need to activate that. To have back our prophet as our role model. That would be the only way out of this mess we're in. ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: You're a bit of a puzzle to me because you're a Fulbright scholar, you have PhD. from Purdue, you're also a 2nd wife. Explain. FATINA SHAKER: Yes, I'm a 2nd wife. And I could say I'm really proud of it, proud of having that provision, happy that I as Muslim woman or as a woman I have that provision that allows me to be a 2nd wife. I have had nothing against marrying a 2nd wife, but I have been against misusing the provision and many provisions in Islam are really being misused, whether by husbands or religious people or politicians or whatever. And I never thought I'd accept to be a 2nd wife, but when I met my husband, Dr. Sami Angawi, and all of a sudden we realized that both of us would like to get together, not only as colleagues, but really to get together as a couple. We were happy to find that provision that allowed us to that, but under one condition: that it would not harm his family. So this is where it is very important from my viewpoint that marrying a 2nd time will not really be on the expense of the first marriage. Of course, there are cases where the husband has divorced his 1st wife and he marries a 2nd time, it's OK. But, in our case, the family is there. It's intact. It's improving, and my husband is so determined to keep his family and to improve the relationship with his wife and his children. |
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FATINA
SHAKER: I'd like to welcome you here in Saudi Arabia. Your coming here,
somehow is new because I feel that there is a certain attention given
to the Saudi society to women, to men, to education from the American
press or the American media now. And many people have been coming, but
now, especially after the 9/11, this influx you know. So this kind of
makes us question why, you know why all this attention, especially the
attention you are giving to women's issues. There are many journalists
-- broadcasters -- coming here to ask about womens' situations. So what
is the interest, why? Saudi Arabia and the United States, they have
known each other for a long time. They have been friends for a long
time. The American government knows exactly what is the situation in
Saudi Arabia in every respect. We've been having our ups and downs.
Our moves upward and our moves backward. We didn't get that attention
before. We were not really listened to and were in a way ignored or
suppressed. So why the attention now?