CONDUCT UNBECOMING

	March 17, 1999
	Correspondent Phil Ponce talks with Mark Thompson of Time magazine about the latest "sexual misconduct" case against a retired army general.

PHIL PONCE: And here to help us tell that story is Mark Thompson, National Security Correspondent for "Time" Magazine. Welcome, Mark. Mark, give us thumbnail description of what this case is about. MARK THOMPSON, Time Magazine: This case is about allegations that General Hale had improper relationships with four wives of subordinate officers of his. Today he pled guilty to that and will soon be sentenced. PHIL PONCE: And let's back up a little bit. This is rare. How often is it that a general is court-martialed and how often is it that somebody is called back from retirement to face military charges? MARK THOMPSON: Well, this is the first time since the Uniform Code of Military Justice was put in nearly a half century ago that they've actually called somebody back from retirement. Technically, he is not on active duty but he is retired and that's very unusual. PHIL PONCE: And that's because, what, under military law, the UCMJ, as people call it, you can be called back for something that you might have done while you were on active duty, is that it? MARK THOMPSON: That's exactly right. And that's what's happened here. PHIL PONCE: And General Hale, tell us just a little bit about him. MARK THOMPSON: General Hale is a highly decorated Vietnam veteran -- won a Silver Star, a Purple Heart, a hunter, a scuba diver, someone everybody liked; he encouraged his troops to call him Dave even though he had two stars on his shoulder and was very friendly, very affable and quite highly regarded. He is a West Point graduate. PHIL PONCE: And the facts, what were the allegations that were made against him? MARK THOMPSON: The allegations were -- is he was separated from his wife but not yet divorced that he had inappropriate sexual relations with four different women basically from 1996 to 1998. And his attorney argues that these were all consensual but, of course, as we've learned from Aberdeen and other instants of military sexual improprieties, when you've got a difference in rank, the idea of consensualty sort of goes out the window. PHIL PONCE: And also, under military law, there is a -- it prohibits adultery under the provision dealing with conduct unbecoming an officer. So whether or not it's consensual, what, it's still potentially a violation of military law? MARK THOMPSON: It's prejudicial to good order and discipline, and it is conduct unbecoming an officer and those are charges for which General Hale is charged. PHIL PONCE: One of the women went public. Tell us about what she claimed. MARK THOMPSON: Donna Marie Carpino was the wife of General Hale's personnel officer in NATO's Southeastern Command in Turkey -- 1996, 1997. And General Hale allegedly went to her and said "Your husband is having affairs with four women and I can kick him out but I won't, if you'll sleep with me." Now, he alleges that that didn't happen; she said it did; and right now it is sort of a he said-she said but he did plead guilty today to that affair involving her. PHIL PONCE: Did he say anything in court today? Was he asked to make a statement? MARK THOMPSON: No, he wasn't asked, but he was asked some questions, and he did acknowledge that his undue familiarity with the wives of subordinate officers did allow for there to be an environment that wasn't conducive to good order and discipline. And his attorney acknowledged he's pleading guilty to these eight counts because they are true. He is guilty of them. PHIL PONCE: And, again, but the point being that his argument is that it was all consensual, could have been inappropriate, may have violated military law, but it was a consensual relationship. MARK THOMPSON: Right. Right. PHIL PONCE: Last year, what happened? His -- tell us about the retirement, how that came about and the reaction to that. MARK THOMPSON: What was interesting was General Hale returned to the Pentagon in late '97 to become the Deputy Inspector General of the Army, a very powerful position in which he was in charge of all sorts of personnel investigations. PHIL PONCE: Including allegations of sexual harassment, yes? MARK THOMPSON: Especially allegations of sexual harassment, yes. And he was only in that billet for four months when he went to the Chief of Staff of the Army, General Denny Rhymer and said, "I want to retire." And the four-star general who runs the Army said okay and he was gone eight days later. Now, this happened shortly after Donna Marie Carpino had gone to the Army and to the Department of Defense to make a complaint about General Hale, and that led some folks to think that General Hale was being shown the door rather quickly while these charges were still pending; and shortly thereafter, Army officials acknowledged they should not have allowed him to leave with these charges hanging over his head and subsequently, Secretary Cohen, the Secretary of Defense, has imposed new rules that bar that from happening. PHIL PONCE: And at about the same time that this retirement took place, there was another high-profile case going on -- the case against Sergeant Gene McKinney, the sergeant major of the Army. Remind us what that was about and what the juxtaposition meant -- what people inferred from it. MARK THOMPSON: Well, basically, the phrase "double standard" leapt to the floor because Sergeant Major McKinney was charged with having inappropriate relationships with women, the same thing that General Hale was charge with. He went through a long, grueling Article 32 grand jury proceeding; he went through a long, humiliating public trial. Ultimately, his court-martial found him guilty only on one charge of obstruction of justice, strangely none of the sexual charges, and yet a far higher officer, you know, essentially was allowed to leave scot-free with his full pension. And folks just said, you know, what other evidence do you need that there's a double standard here? And the Army went into some discussion over how there really wasn't a double standard and oh, by the way, the General could always be called back if we found evidence that he might have been guilty of these charges and that, indeed, is what the Army has now done. PHIL PONCE: And how much heat did the Army get at the time that it became public that the General had been allowed to retire, congressional interest, for example? MARK THOMPSON: Yes. They got a lot of congressional interest and concern from -- especially from female lawmakers but also from some male lawmakers. There were tough questions going on and even the Pentagon civilians were upset at the way the Army handled this. PHIL PONCE: And right now, the General, what are the potential penalties that he might face? MARK THOMPSON: He can actually be severed from the service, even though he's retired. He would lose his $76,000 a year pension; he does face up to 11 years imprisonment on the smaller number of charges he had pled guilty to; and we should know later today or tomorrow just precisely what the judge will decide. PHIL PONCE: Up until just a few days ago, though, he was very forcefully and passionately declaring his innocence. What caused him to change his mind? Did his lawyer say anything about what motivated him? MARK THOMPSON: The sense in the Army is that he was really concerned that, number one, he would be convicted if it went through a court-martial, and that the Army would be even more angry with him if he put the Army through that and he could have faced 56 years in prison. Now he's only facing 11 and so pleading to the smaller charges seemed to be a smart way to avoid a long prison term, and I think that was the prime motivation. PHIL PONCE: How closely is this case being watched? MARK THOMPSON: The case is being watched very closely by the troops. I mean, the troops talk a lot of times about what happened to President Clinton; they've talked a lot to me and others about what's happening with General Hale. They believe there is a double standard. Sometimes I think they're right and I think that is why they are watching this case so closely because they want to see justice done to the General as it would be done to an E-1 or E-2 enlisted person. And so they're sort of sitting there, waiting just to see what happens. PHIL PONCE: And E-1, E-2, those are the low ranks? MARK THOMPSON: Those are the lowest you can go, that's right. PHIL PONCE: Okay. Mark Thompson, thank you very much. MARK THOMPSON: Thank you, Phil.