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| NOT GUILTY | |
 March 4, 1999 
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| Marine Corps Captain Richard Ashby was acquitted on 20 counts of manslaughter at a trial in North Carolina. He flew a jet into a ski gondola line last year that killed 20 people.
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FRANK SPINNER, pilot's lawyer: The first thing I'd like to say is we appreciate the integrity and the conscientiousness with which the jury listened to this case and deliberated. We believe that their finding displays an act of courage and true integrity. We also, as Rich just said, express our heartfelt feelings for the families of the victims. They suffered a tremendous loss. As I argued in the closing argument, we said that this was a terrible, tragic training accident. That's been our position consistently all along. This has been a very difficult and challenging year for many people. We still face charges. Some of you may have heard about Ashby Two. Well, we don't want to comment any further because he still has those charges pending against him. That still lies out in the future. We don't know how that's going to be resolved. I will say this, however: I think it's time, now that the truth has come out in the courtroom, for the Marine Corps to look back at how this trial came about, and I think it's time for Congress, perhaps, to look at the Marine Corps once all these issues are resolved, and perhaps look at what went wrong. How is that the Marine Corps could claim that Captain Ashby committed an act of involuntary manslaughter, recklessness, and how is it that a jury could acquit him of those same charges and even lesser charges? |  | ||||||||||||||||||
| The verdict. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| JIM LEHRER: Matthew Wald is aviation correspondent for the New York Times. He covered the trial. Retired Colonel Scott Silliman is a former Air Force lawyer, now executive director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke University's School of Law. Cesare De Carlo is the Washington correspondent for three Italian national newspapers. JIM LEHRER: Matthew Wald, for those of you covering the trial, was this verdict today a surprise?
JIM LEHRER: That's the way the verdict should be read, right? There was no criminal negligence. It was an accident -- a training accident? MATTHEW WALD: It was a training accident. It should also be read that there were many problems within the squadron. There were problems between the squadron, which was rotating in and out of Aviano, and the resident Air Force squadron which is there all the time. There were problems with the National Imagery and Mapping Agency, which made the charts which didn't show the ski lift system, and other problems elsewhere. JIM LEHRER: Yes. All right, now, you were there -- some of the press were next door, is that right? And you saw it on closed circuit TV. MATTHEW WALD: Yes. JIM LEHRER: What could you see when the verdict was actually delivered? What was the reaction in the courtroom? MATTHEW WALD: Well, the judge asked the defendant and his lawyers to stand and they stood there stiff and straight like Marines. And there was no impact visible from behind them. Ashby's sister let out a whoop and a little later on the sister of one of the German victims said that if it had been her -- she doesn't have a son -- if it had been her daughter, her daughter was found innocent with 20 deaths on her conscience, she doesn't think that she would have let out a whoop and she doesn't think she could have set foot in the courtroom. But there was a whoop. Captain Schweitzer, who in theory faces a court-martial in a few days, climbed over a couple of rows of chairs, hugged Asbhy's family, shook, and held out his hand across the bar and shook Ashby's hand. It wasn't a surprise but it was still a moment of drama. JIM LEHRER: Schweitzer was the navigator, correct? MATTHEW WALD: Right. He occupied the right seat. The people in the back seat really didn't have much view out the front. And they got cut out of this legal proceeding fairly early. But he was responsible for mission planning. JIM LEHRER: I see. I just wanted to explain -- there were four crewmen in this airplane and Ashby was the pilot, Schweitzer was the co-pilot, and the two in the back. The two in the back are not going to be tried. MATTHEW WALD: I'm losing him. JIM LEHRER: I'm sorry. Can you hear me now? MATTHEW WALD: Yes. I can hear you now. Go ahead. JIM LEHRER: All right. I was just explaining there were four crew members on the plane. There was Ashby on the left side, Schweitzer, the navigator, then the two in the back.
JIM LEHRER: Yes. And so the charges against them have been dropped, right, the two in the back? MATTHEW WALD: Yes, although one of them did provide a statement, which is the basis for the obstruction of justice count. He said that he was approached by Schweitzer and Ashby and they asked him what they thought he -- he thought they should do about the tape. He said, "I'd get rid of it." He later said on the stand the same thing which, in a way means that he is the origin of this obstruction. But apparently they did get rid of it; at least, they haven't turned it over as evidence. And that's the only charge really hanging over their heads at this point. JIM LEHRER: That's the Ashby Two - MATTHEW WALD: Correct. JIM LEHRER: -- that Ashby's lawyer was talking about. MATTHEW WALD: Correct. I think it's possible that may not come to a court-martial. The Marines may decide at this time to adjudicate that in a less formal way. I know that Spinner, the lawyer for Ashby, said that he would be asking the commanding general in charge of the Marine Forces Atlantic to dispose of that in something called a non-judicial proceeding, which could levy a variety of penalties against Ashby, including ending his career, but I'm not sure how much of a career he has flying the planes from here forward anyway. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Official reaction. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| JIM LEHRER: Yes. Okay. Mr. De Carlo, the official reaction from your government has been what so far?
JIM LEHRER: So there is no question then that from your point -- not from your point of view but from reporting about the European point of view, that this Marine pilot committed a crime; it wasn't an accident? CESARE DE CARLO: Yes. Last year an Italian prosecutor tried to prosecute the crew of the jet, of the American jet. But in order Italian court overruled him saying that the USA has jurisdiction on this matter on the basis of NATO Treaty. Now, our prime minister in his first reaction said, we must find out new ways to get justice. JIM LEHRER: He said that today when he arrived in Washington a while ago. CESARE DE CARLO: Just some hours ago. I don't see how the trial could be made outside of the USA. To my opinion now that trial in the USA is over. The problem is political. And politically there are a lot of dangers. As you maybe remember, last year immediately after the accident, some left parties in Italy and Germany posed the question of the closure of the base in Aviano. JIM LEHRER: That's where this jet was stationed.
JIM LEHRER: Both Bosnia and Kosovo flights come from Aviano. CESARE DE CARLO: Come from Aviano. Exactly. I would say 80 percent, 90 percent of the flights come from Aviano. |  | |||||||||||||||||||
| The United States still accepts responsibility. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| JIM LEHRER: We'll come back to the political thing in a minute but I want to bring Colonel Silliman in here. Colonel, what would you say to Mr. De Carlo and the other Italians and Europeans? How would you explain this verdict to them?
JIM LEHRER: In other words, he could have been negligent or he could have been careless but where do you draw the line between that and a criminal -- say criminal negligence, criminal carelessness, if there is such a term? COL. SCOTT SILLIMAN: Well, Jim, the jury, when it came with a total acquittal also found that Captain Ashby was not guilty of simple negligence. And that would have been what we call the lesser included offense of negligent homicide, which the jury could have found him guilty of. They did not. So, as I interpret the verdict that came out today, that jury found that Captain Ashby did apparently the best job he could at handling that jet in the circumstances in which he faced. That may not be a popular finding, particularly in Europe, but nonetheless, as I've analyzed the facts and the evidence, I think it is a correct verdict. JIM LEHRER: What would you say to anybody American -- any American included -- hey, wait a minute, this was a military trial; the jurors were fellow Marine officers of Captain Ashby's; what more could you expect than an acquittal, than standing up for one of your own?
JIM LEHRER: Explain that. Tell us about that quickly. Remind us about that. COL. SCOTT SILLIMAN: Jim, your viewers may remember that two Air Force F-15 fighter jets shot down two unarmed Black Hawk helicopters that were conveying United Nations and other personnel in Northern Iraq. And tragically over twenty people died in that accident. The F-15 crew, both the pilot who fired the missile and his wing man, Lt. Colonel May, neither one were charged. And the only trial that resulted was of Captain Wang, who was a controller on the Air Force AWACS aircraft, and he was acquitted. Now, that's not to say mistakes were not made in that situation or in the one we are dealing with today. But it means that to hold an individual criminally liable requires a higher standard than to acknowledge that the Americans were at fault. JIM LEHRER: Do you see it that way? Do you understand what the Colonel is saying, Mr. De Carlo? CESARE DE CARLO: No, I don't see the problem this way. I mean, the altitude of the plane the moment of the impact and with the cable of the gondola was under 300 feet - where -- instead of the minimum altitude of 2,000 feet; the speed was 624 miles per hour, instead of the 517, according to the regulation. The video camera disappeared immediately after the landing of the plane in Aviano. Apparently some maps were not found inside of the cockpit. I mean all this circumstances are oddly suspect. JIM LEHRER: And, you believe - to go back to your point earlier -- that this thing is a long way from being over politically. You think - CESARE DE CARLO: Absolutely. JIM LEHRER: -- this could cause real problems between the United States and Italy.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Well, Mr. De Carlo, Colonel Silliman, thank you, and Matthew Wald, who already had to go, I will say goodbye to him in absentia. Thank you all three very much. |  | |||||||||||||||||||
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JIM
LEHRER: The Marine pilot trial: We start with reaction from the chief defense
lawyer for the acquitted pilot, Captain Richard Ashby. 
MATTHEW
WALD, New York Times: Well, Jim, not really. If you go back to last year
when the Marine Corps held an Article 32, it's the rough equivalent of a grand
jury proceeding. The presiding officer there said they could try to put the crew
on trial, but there was so much fault all over, that the outcome would be uncertain.
And then during the course of the trial, the prosecution put on several witnesses
who ended up saying things favorable to the defense. The question was not whether
they would send Captain Ashby to jail for 200 years but whether they would find
any degree of negligence whatsoever and today they found no negligence, which
means then it was an accident. 
MATTHEW
WALD: Right. They're electronic counter measures officers known as ECMO's. And
the object of this exercise was the pilot is somewhat like a bus driver. He is
down there flying low - flying between the mountains, ECMO One, in this case Captain
Schweitzer did the mission planning and is supposed to figure out where they'll
make each turn. The two guys in the back are working a panel of classified electronic
beer that jams radars, does other electronic counter measures. On this particular
flight they didn't have a whole lot of function because they were flying over
Italy, not Bosnia. 
CESARE
DE CARLO, Italian journalist: Shock, disbelief, anger. The reaction of our government
was in line with the reaction of our public opinion. Nobody expected such a verdict.
And by the way, this verdict couldn't come at a worse moment because our Prime
Minister Valama came to Washington just a few hours ago, and tomorrow he will
meet with President Clinton. I said nobody suspected such a verdict because the
evidences in this case were considered overwhelming: the speed, the altitude,
the recklessness of the flight, the maneuvering. The only question in Italy, and
I said in Europe because the victims came from several countries in Europe: Germany,
Austria, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland. The only question was how many years the
pilot should get for this - for his behavior. 
CESARE
DE CARLO: Exactly. And the base in Aviano, as you know, is vital for NATO. From
Aviano start usually the NATO missions for the Balkans. Now I - 
COL.
SCOTT SILLIMAN, (Ret.), former Air Force lawyer: Well, Jim, I think you have to
separate the criminal trial from the fact that the United States still accepts
responsibility for being the cause of the accident and the tragic death of 20
people. And there are claims procedures under the Foreign Claims Act and under
NATO procedures for those families to be compensated as best they can for the
deaths of their family members. But we're dealing at Camp Lejeune with a criminal
trial and a standard under American law of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And
as your viewers may have read or watched the evidence unfold as the government
put on its case in the last several weeks, there were several aspects of the government
case that really weighed in favor of the defense. And they have already been mentioned.
So it was not unexpected that the government's case, as weak as it ultimately
showed in the trial, would not result in an acquittal. And, remember, six of the
juries, six of the eight, had to find beyond a reasonable doubt that Captain Ashby
was culpably negligent, that he totally had no -- he was not informed whatsoever,
took no consideration of the foreseeable consequences of an act. That's a very
high standard, Jim. And the jury today in their verdict said they did not believe
he was guilty of that standard. 
COL.
SCOTT SILLIMAN: Well, Jim, I think you have to understand and appreciate the Uniform
Code of Military Justice and the military justice system as it's practiced in
this country. I would suggest that it is one of the fairest systems of justice
anywhere in the world. It has a great deal of procedural protections involved
for an accused such as Captain Ashby. We can never jump to the conclusion that
just because there is a tragic accident as occurred on the 3rd of February last
year, that someone has to be criminally accountable for it. This is the same thing
that happened in 1994 when the two Black Hawk helicopters were shot down. And
there was a cry for somebody to be tried. 
CESARE
DE CARLO: Absolutely. You can not forget that in Italy we have two Communist Parties
- one is part of the majority coalition. In Germany, the foreign ministry -- justice
official, leader of the Green Party is always been anti-NATO. So I think that
the pressure for -- I don't say for closure of the base but for a revoke of the
U.S. landing rights will mount in the next weeks.