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| SAMUEL BERGER | |
 August 21, 1998  |
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President Clinton's National Security Adviser discusses the U.S. missile strike against targets in Sudan and Afghanistan and future actions against the terrorist organization headed by Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden. |
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SAMUEL BERGER, National Security Adviser: Good to be here. |
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| The U.S. strikes | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: Did the air strikes accomplish their purpose? SAMUEL BERGER: I believe they have, Jim. As Secretary Cohen earlier indicated, we don't have a full assessment of the damage because of the weather conditions in the-particularly in the Afghanistan area, but we know, number one, that it destroyed a factory in Sudan, which was manufacturing a chemical used to make VX nerve gas. JIM LEHRER: And that was the point, was to destroy that plant, right? SAMUEL BERGER: That's correct. And there's no question, I saw a piece coming in-there's no question that that's what was being done at that plant. We have physical evidence of that fact. JIM LEHRER: You have physical evidence that they were making nerve gas in that plant?
JIM LEHRER: What kind of physical evidence? SAMUEL BERGER: Let me leave it at that-evidence that is indisputable, as far as we're concerned. JIM LEHRER: But not just photographs from satellites and that sort of thing? SAMUEL BERGER: Correct. JIM LEHRER: Something that you could hold in your hand or look at that made you believe that they were making these precursors. SAMUEL BERGER: Something that gave us a very high level of confidence that these chemicals were being made in this plant, which was part of an industrial complex that Osama bin Laden has helped to finance. Second of all, in terms of the camps in Afghanistan, we struck at the host camps in Afghanistan. This is one of the largest terrorist training facilities in the world. JIM LEHRER: Now, how do you know that? SAMUEL BERGER: We watch these things quite carefully. JIM LEHRER: From satellites? SAMUEL BERGER: Among other means. Thousands of terrorists have been trained in this camp from a variety of organizations, most of which are related to bin Laden. We know that we did moderate to severe damage to the facilities in that camp, but because of weather conditions, we can't be more precise. I think over the next few days we will have a little clearer picture. JIM LEHRER: Moderate to severe damage, what does that mean, I mean, buildings blown up, holes in the ground, what?
JIM LEHRER: Without photographs, et cetera, the lay person trying to keep in mind what a training facility is like, what should they think of, an army base? SAMUEL BERGER: Yes. JIM LEHRER: At a U.S. Army base- SAMUEL BERGER: Military- JIM LEHRER: --something comparable to that? SAMUEL BERGER: Military encampment. JIM LEHRER: So that would be barracks and headquarters, buildings, and- SAMUEL BERGER: And command and communications, command and control. JIM LEHRER: What about weapons, explosives, that sort of thing? SAMUEL BERGER: We know that there are explosives in the camps or in the vicinity of the camps. |
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| After the attack | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: Now, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has said that 27 people were killed and 30 were injured in those strikes. Does that jive with your figures? SAMUEL BERGER: We have no independent figures at all at this stage. And I don't know whether those figures are accurate or not. JIM LEHRER: What about- SAMUEL BERGER: I believe that there were-our purpose in striking these camps was to go after an infrastructure related to Mr. bin Laden and his network, both with respect to his military training facilities and the terrorist groups that were gathered there. And I believe we did some damage to both. JIM LEHRER: Now, the president said in his remarks to the American people yesterday that there was a meeting scheduled or set for a bunch of terrorists there at that particular camp, and that was one of the reasons that the U.S. chose to strike yesterday. Is there any evidence one way or another whether that meeting was held, whether it was in progress, when the cruise missiles landed, or what?
JIM LEHRER: But you knew people were there? SAMUEL BERGER: It was our expectation, yes. JIM LEHRER: Now, do you know where bin Laden is now? SAMUEL BERGER: We have no confirmation of where he may or may not be. JIM LEHRER: Why has he-so much trouble to find out-I mean, why is it hard to track him? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, he-he travels, obviously, in a way that is designed to try to avoid detection, to avoid being in a place where he can be apprehended. He is not only someone who has attacked the United States. He's someone who has attacked-he and his network-President Mubarak of Egypt, the Pope, Pakistani soldiers-our soldiers in Somalia-soldiers of other countries-so, you know, it's not somebody you would, presumably-who would presumably want to go walking down Fifth Avenue. |
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| Was bin Laden a target? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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SAMUEL BERGER: We did not target bin Laden, specifically, in this strike. We didn't know whether he would be in this camp or not. We consider this camp to be a military target. And under these circumstances, we believe that what we did was both appropriate and lawful. JIM LEHRER: But if a U.S. agent armed came across bin Laden walking down Fifth Avenue, he wouldn't have to arrest him or read him his rights, would he? I mean, in other words, is he considered a target under U.S. law, legitimately so? SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I would rather not speculate about what may or may not be the future of Mr. bin Laden. He certainly is somebody that we would like to have an opportunity to contact. JIM LEHRER: If he was, in fact, at this camp yesterday, and he was killed, that would be no problem for the United States, would it? SAMUEL BERGER: As I say, I think this was a military target. We expected that there would be casualties. These were individuals and groups that have committed wanton murder. All one has to do is look at the twisted ruins of Dar and smell the rotten bodies which still-body parts that are still in Nairobi to get a sense of who these people are. These are military warriors in a fanatical campaign, and they are legitimate, I think, targets for the United States.
SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I would say this, without regard to bin Laden, himself-and again this is-there's a network here-it's not simply one individual-he's at the heart of it. He helps to finance it, but there's a network. We have a serious problem of terrorism worldwide and particularly with respect to the United States. We saw that in Nairobi. We saw that in Dar. We saw that in Khartoum. We saw that in Riyadh. We saw that at the World Trade Center. That problem existed Wednesday. It wasn't created on Thursday, and it still exists on Friday. And that's why the president has indicated that we have to be persistent here. But what we did on Thursday is to say that while we need a course to defend ourselves, to harden our embassies and protect ourselves, you can't fight this enemy simply on defense. You have to also be prepared to go on offense, as well, where we believe it's appropriate. JIM LEHRER: And Secretary Albright in the news clip that we ran, in fact, on the news summary, said this-termed this "the war of the future," in fact. So what happens next, Mr. Berger? I mean, are we going to wait till we're hit again and then react, or is this an ongoing war, it's a new war? Explain it to us. SAMUEL BERGER: Well, I think it's a multifaceted effort. And it's been going on for some time. Over the last several years, we've intensified our campaign against terrorists in a number of different ways. Since 1993, Jim, we have apprehended about 40 terrorists around the world, some of them going back to incidents ten/twelve years ago, because of an intensified law enforcement and intelligence effort, brought them back and held them to justice, whether that was the World Trade Center bombers or the person who killed the CIA agents outside of the CIA headquarters in Virginia. So part of that is law enforcement. Part of it is beefing up our intelligence. Part of it is stronger laws. The President has introduced and Congress has passed stronger laws for us to deal with terrorists. Part of it is closer cooperation with our allies so that this is not simply one country dealing with this concerted effort, and part of it, where appropriate, is military action. |
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| The next phase | ||||||||||||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: But what should we expect next?
JIM LEHRER: Maybe what I'm getting at, to be specific, Mr. Berger, is something like this: Is the United States of America saying, bin Laden, we are after you and you and your network, and we are at war with you, and we are not-we are going to get you, and we're going to destroy your network, and that may be-that war continues tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, militarily and otherwise? SAMUEL BERGER: I'd put it slightly differently. JIM LEHRER: All right. SAMUEL BERGER: bin Laden has said he's at war with the United States. In May of this year, he issued a fatwah saying that he authorized, declared, empowered his people to attack American targets. He has gone on one of your competing networks to say that he- JIM LEHRER: CNN. SAMUEL BERGER: --will not discriminate between civilian and military targets. They're all targets, as far as he's concerned. He's conducted a series of attacks in the United States. He has conducted-he has, in a sense, declared war on the United States. We have a right to defend ourselves, not only by thicker walls but by more proactive methods. JIM LEHRER: So we are after him? SAMUEL BERGER: Certainly. We're after all not just him-I think it would be too simplistic to say he's the sole terrorist problem in the world. He happens to be an important non-state terrorist, who is focused on the United States. There are other terrorist groups, and we have to recognize we can't have our head in the sand, that this is a problem, and we will deal with it, as Americans always have, with persistence, with strength, with steadfastness, with courage, knowing that there will be other incidents against us, but that also knowing that we're not simply going to be passive.
SAMUEL BERGER: Yes. There certainly is an upgrading of security at our airports and higher degree of alert on the part of our police and FBI. I think Americans should go on and carry out their lives, and do all the things that they would normally do. But we, I think as a country, have to be united in saying that this is a new kind of threat and, just as we've faced, for example, in the 80's-there was a spate of hijackings and one was fearful to get on a plane, because you were afraid you might be hijacked, and we buckled down. We increased the security of our airports. We went after these people. That problem hasn't gone away, but it's been greatly diminished. We can deal with this as a nation, if we remain resolute and strong, recognize that there will be ups and downs and good days and bad days. JIM LEHRER: Okay. Mr. Berger, thank you very much. SAMUEL BERGER: Thank you, Jim.
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JIM LEHRER: Samuel Berger is President Clinton's national security adviser.
He joins us now for a Newsmaker interview. Mr. Berger, welcome. 
SAMUEL BERGER: We have physical evidence that they were making a chemical
which is essentially one step removed from VX gas, a precursor chemical
necessary to make VX gas, which does not have other significant commercial
purposes. 
SAMUEL BERGER: It means that the facility will not be able to function
as a training facility, both because of the physical damage that has
been done to it and because the obvious vulnerability, which has been
demonstrated by virtue of our strike. 
SAMUEL BERGER: Well, we had information soon after the April-the August
7th bombings of Nairobi and of our embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam,
not only information that began to accumulate about who was responsible
but also at the same time, we had information suggesting that there
was some-to be some gathering of bin Laden's network on Thursday. We
watched this camp fairly carefully during the days proceeding. It's
impossible, obviously, to know exactly what was-who was present. 
JIM LEHRER: All right. There's a presidential order forbidding the United
States Government to assassinate foreign leaders. Does bin Laden fit
under the category under the definition of "foreign leader?" 
JIM LEHRER: And from the U.S. point of view, you are assuming that he's
still alive, still active, and still aiming to hurt American and American
targets? 
SAMUEL BERGER: I think that we simply have to continue to keep this
as a priority in the conduct of our affairs. The United States has many
interests in the world. We have an interest in peace in Bosnia succeeding.
We have an interest in the Middle East peace process in Northern Ireland.
We have an interest in restoring health to the global economy. And we
have an interest in-as the President has been saying for several years
now-in dealing with a new set of threats, transnational threats, terrorism,
drugs, international crime; they are the security threats of the future.
JIM LEHRER: And the police, for instance, here in Washington, there
are more police on the streets today at all government buildings-at
the airports and other places. This is the future. This is part of this
war, isn't it?