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| STARS AND BARS | |
 January 17, 2000 
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Demonstrators marched on the grounds of the South Carolina statehouse to protest the Confederate flag at state buildings. Gwen Ifill leads a discussion.
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SPOKESMAN: Basically what we want to show is support that gives a national presence, that shows that people outside of South Carolina are just as concerned as the local people.
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| Heritage and history | ||||||||||||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: Dwight James, you spent the day today as part of that crowd of 50,000. What does that flag on top of the capitol mean to you?
GWEN IFILL: Is your objection, Mr. James, to the flag being on top of the capitol or the flag flying anywhere at all? DWIGHT JAMES: Our objection has been stated clearly, and that's to the flag being represented in positions of sovereignty in the state. And here we have the confederate flag flying above the capitol, the people's house in Columbia. GWEN IFILL: Mr. Haskins, people talk about southern heritage as a reason for preserving the flag. Is it possible that heritage is one of those things like beauty that's in the eye of the beholder?
GWEN IFILL: How about that, Dwight James, why not just remove the flag to another location of the confederate memorial? |
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| Economic sanctions vs. public policy | ||||||||||||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: Terry Haskins, it sounds like you're more upset about the idea of the fact that the NAACP is making these sanctions, these demands on the state than of the idea of removing the flag itself. TERRY HASKINS: You have to understand that there's an important principle of governing involved; and that is that it would be bad public policy for any legislative body to take action based upon economic threats or sanctions. That's just a bad precedent to set when dealing with any special interest groups. GWEN IFILL: Was that precedent not set elsewhere in the south during the civil rights movement with lunch counter boycotts in the south?
GWEN IFILL: Dwight James, people who support the flag say that this march today was essentially a stunt, a way of getting attention rather than a way of finding a solution to a problem.
GWEN IFILL: Terry Haskins, go ahead, respond.
GWEN IFILL: Dwight James, has there been any kind of fallout, any kind of way you can measure the effect of your economic boycott?
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| Raising tensions | ||||||||||||||||||||
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GWEN IFILL: Dwight -- I'm sorry, Terry Haskins, one of the problems with issues about race in America is that things get rhetorically flamboyant. At some point a supporter of thing from at a pro flag rally last week, a state senator referred to the NAACP as the national association for the advancement of retarded people, and when he was asked to apologize, he said he apologized only to the retarded people of the world. TERRY HASKINS: That's very unfortunate. GWEN IFILL: How does that advance your argument?
GWEN IFILL: Will there be a vote in the statehouse this year on this issue? TERRY HASKINS: I expect there probably will be a vote. I don't know how soon it will come. But I think it would be very unfortunate if the legislature was forced to take action under threats of economic sanctions. I think that's bad public policy. GWEN IFILL: And, Dwight James, given what you've heard Terry Haskins say, what is your sense about whether there will be a vote this year and what the outcome will be?
GWEN IFILL: Okay. That will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, Dwight James and Terry Haskins in South Carolina. DWIGHT JAMES: Thank you. TERRY HASKINS: Thank you. |
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GWEN
IFILL: Nearly 50,000 people gathered on the streets of downtown Columbia,
South Carolina today, all drawn by this sight on top of the statehouse
dome: The U.S. flag, the state's palmetto flag, and the stars and bars,
a symbol of the confederacy. The dispute over the flag-- supporters
say it is a symbol of the state's heritage, opponents say it glorifies
slavery-- has long been contentious. South Carolina is the only state
still flying the flag over government property, and the only state that
does not observe civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday
as a holiday. 
GWEN
IFILL: The confederate flag was first raised over the state capitol
in 1962, as part of a centennial celebration of the Civil War. But black
leaders in South Carolina and around the country have denounced the
display, calling it a deliberately offensive celebration of pre-Civil
War, pro-slavery sentiment. Last year, the NAACP called for a boycott
of South Carolina's $14 billion tourist industry, and estimates more
than 90 groups have canceled events. Last week, about 6,000 people,
some dressed in period costume, marched in support of the flag. Many
argue that it is a fitting tribute to confederate civil war veterans,
and have defeated past efforts to remove it. The flag's future will
be decided by the state legislature, which began its six-month session
last week. 
GWEN
IFILL: Now, two sides of a difficult issue: In South Carolina. Dwight
James, executive director of the state NAACP, took part in today's march.
Terry Haskins, a state representative and speaker pro tem of the House,
watched from a distance. Mr. Haskins, what does the confederate flag
mean to you? 
TERRY
HASKINS: Well, the confederate flag means a lot of things to a lot of
different people. Obviously the crowds of people who came to South Carolina
today to demonstrate see the flag as a symbol of racism and hatred,
but there are also thousands and thousands of honest, God-fearing southerners
who see the flag as a symbol of honor and heritage and respect. The
unfortunate thing about what's going on now in South Carolina is the
manner in which the economic sanctions were placed on the state of South
Carolina. The resolution which called for the flag to be removed was
adopted in July of last year after the general assembly was out of session.
It demanded that the flag had to come down by January 1 or else economic
sanctions would be placed on the state of South Carolina. The leaders
of the NAACP knew that the general assembly was not in session during
that time and that constitutionally we could not take any action. So
it was really not fair to put that kind of a standard up that couldn't
be met and then to impose sanctions for not meeting them. 
DWIGHT
JAMES: Well, the flag represents to many African Americans like myself
the institution of slavery, an idea about the confederacy, that it stood
for the continuation of slavery, the segregation of African Americans
in this country, and it's also associated with many modern-day hate
groups such as the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis and violent groups that see
African Americans as unworthy of American citizenship. 
TERRY
HASKINS: Well, absolutely heritage is in the eye of the beholder, and
so is the location of the flag. There's a legitimate argument that the
flag should not be flying on the capitol dome because it doesn't represent
the sovereign government under which we govern in South Carolina. But
the NAACP is not being totally honest in their demands. They have said
that they want it taken off the dome. We've suggested that the flag
be policed on the confederate soldier's monument on the statehouse grounds.
That would be within its historical context. It is a memorial that's
been in place for over 130 years. But so far the leaders of the NAACP
have rejected that notion, insisting rather that the flag be put out
of view and be retired in shame and disgrace and that those southerners
who hold it to be a symbol of great honor would have to be disgraced
in their feelings about the flag.
DWIGHT
JAMES: Well, let's, first of all, set the record straight. We've had
many opportunities in South Carolina to remove the flag. And our leaders
in the state senate and the statehouse have just failed to act. The
resolution came about as a result of much study, much preparation on
the part of the association, and that is the state conference in South
Carolina took the resolution to New York and had the delegates there
consider and approve unanimously the action that called for economic
sanctions. And now we find ourselves in a position where over that six-month
period, we had no movement by the part of the leadership in South Carolina,
not to take the flag down, not even having substantive discussions along
that manner. Now, we have not taken up any discussions or come up with
any position with regard of placement of the flag. We have at this point
been insisting and consistent and persistent in our position that thing
from should not fly in positions of sovereignty. And that's where we
stand.
TERRY
HASKINS: I think that precedent was set, and I was not in the legislature
back then obviously. But unfortunately, most of the civil rights legislation
had to be forced upon the South by the federal government. But in this
case, just four years ago, the Republican governor of South Carolina
proposed bringing the flag off the dome and putting it on the confederate
soldier's monument. I stood with him. I urged that proposal to be adopted.
The NAACP did not come out and help. They didn't lift one finger. They
would not support a Republican governor making that proposal. So much
of this is about politics and about dividing people rather than trying
to find solutions that bring people together, and that's an unfortunate
aspect of this whole sanction and boycott. 
DWIGHT
JAMES: Well, I think we hardly needed a stunt to get attention. I think
this issue has focused the attention of the nation and the world on
South Carolina over the last several months. So attention couldn't be
the motive. The people of South Carolina wanted to show and demonstrate
as good constituents that we want action on this issue. Now, if my co-guest
here tonight might interpret that as being a threat, just constituents
acting out their basic right to let their legislators know what they
want to see happen within the state, I think he's being disingenuous.
TERRY
HASKINS: I never said that holding a rally is a threat. The threat was
when the NAACP national organization asked people across the country
to not come to South Carolina, don't spend your tourist dollars here,
don't bring your family reunions to South Carolina. Those are the kind
of economic threats that I'm talking about. And the real problem here
is public policy. We have asked the NAACP to lift the boycott or even
delay it when we were faced with the threat of a boycott, if we didn't
act by January 1, knowing that we couldn't even act, under law we couldn't
act in any way, we asked them to lay the boycott, allow men and women
of goodwill to sit down together, negotiate and try to work out a compromise
that would bring the flag off the dome, satisfy the concerns of the
members of the NAACP, but still treat thing from with honor so they
that you don't have to insult the holders of great southern heritage
in South Carolina.
DWIGHT
JAMES: Well, we measure its effectiveness in, I guess, a few ways --
in terms of the number of groups that have canceled, in terms of the
impact that we see in terms of the economy of the state, and the continuing
interest from people around the country and around the world in this
particular issue. 
TERRY
HASKINS: It doesn't advance the argument. It doesn't advance the argument
anymore than an African American senator saying last week, who said
that if the flag doesn't come down, Columbia is going to burn like it
did under Sherman. Neither of those -- that kind of rhetoric doesn't
help anybody. What we really need is for everyone to step back, take
a deep breath, lift the sanctions and the threats and come together
in an air of mutual respect so that we can try to work something out
that's good for all the people. 
DWIGHT
JAMES: We anticipate that there will be a vote, however, we must also
recognize that we wouldn't be at this particular point in discussions
had it not been for economic sanctions, because we haven't gotten to
the table to negotiate, to discuss, and there was opportunity last year
to take action if there was really a will to take action. We built into
this strategy several windows of opportunity where we had an opportunity
for the governor, an opportunity for the general assembly to move in
a direction that indicated that we were going to move toward resolving
this issue. But we saw no progress.