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| NEWSMAKER: DICK CHENEY | |
| August 2,
2000 |
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Dick Cheney, the former Congressman and Secretary of Defense, discusses his vision for a Bush administration with Jim Lehrer.
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JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, welcome.
JIM LEHRER: So, how's it going after nine days in this big media public limelight? How are you holding up? |
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| A quiet man | |||||||||||
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DICK CHENEY: Well, pretty well so far, I think. It's been fascinating. Of course, it's not new in the sense that I've been around it before. I'd worked for Presidents, been involved in national campaigns and so forth, but it's still different to be the guy right smack in the middle of the bubble - so to speak. And it's been a tremendous experience - the opportunity to get involved in a national campaign, to be a candidate yourself. I've given a lot of advice over the years. Now I have to think back on that and reflect on whether it was good advice or not. JIM LEHRER: What do you think of this commentary - I'm sure you read about it - that you seem uncomfortable, you know, in all this kind of hoopla atmosphere and smiling - having to smile all the time and rock 'em, sock 'em politics - are you uncomfortable at all?
So I watch it all with some interest, and, of course, the commentary has been all over the lot. The big laugh in the family, Jim, has been comparison - some female commentator made the other night when she said I had the sex appeal of cold French fries. JIM LEHRER: We'll leave that one alone. Okay. If I read it correctly, it seemed to me when - right at the beginning - when you were attacked and questioned about your voting record in the House of Representatives, first, you were surprised about it. Then you got hot about it; you got annoyed. Did I read that correctly? DICK CHENEY: I don't know that I'm surprised by it. I think we've seen and would expect that sort of thing - a national campaign - and that's sort of been the standard way the whole operation has run. In terms of being hot under the collar, no, not really. I mean, the fact of the matter is that my record - I voted as I voted probably a couple of thousand times over the course of ten years. I think you have to go back and look at the context, look at the times, and make sure you understand the vote. And I think obviously if somebody distorts the record or tries to take something out of context, there's sort of a natural combative reaction that sets in, but I think it's probably, from my standpoint, important to get those juices flowing anyway.
DICK CHENEY: I'm suggesting that - I won't say that it's not relevant, obviously. It's my record, and I'm proud of it. On the other hand, I think it's not - it's not what the campaign is going to be all about. The campaign is really about the 21st century. It's about what comes next. And I don't think the Democrats, frankly, have made much progress focusing on my votes of 20 years ago as a way to engage in that debate. JIM LEHRER: We're not going through all that again. You've been through that many times. Let's make sure that we have some overview here. Let's say that, you know, the spectrum of the Republican Party then, when you were casting those votes, is it fair to say that whether it's a vote on Head Start or whether it's a vote on the Education Department, whatever, pro-life, whatever, that gun control, that you were in the far right edge of this - in the opinion spectrum of the party then? |
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| A conservative Republican | |||||||||||
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We were faced in those days with big budget deficits, so I often voted against what might have otherwise been a worthy program simply on the grounds that we didn't have enough money to afford everything and we had to make choices, and I was prepared to make those choices. But certainly those were my views then and, you know, I make no apology for them. JIM LEHRER: All right, now, where are you now? In terms of the spectrum of the party, there's - you know, the party is the big umbrella. That's the big message. You've got people - if you're from the very right or even if you're to the left, if you're Republican, you're welcome. Where are you personally in that spectrum now of the present party? DICK CHENEY: Well, then you've got to go back and say, well, where is the spectrum? I think more of it in terms of I don't try to define myself in terms of where I fall within the party. I think of it more in terms of, you know, what are the national issues today, how have things changed, have they changed?
One of the reasons we have a budget surplus today is because we have been able to cut back on military spending from its Cold War levels, and we can afford programs today that we couldn't afford ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, because we do have that surplus. We need to make choices now that we couldn't make then. The surplus, in part, is a direct result of a strong vibrant nature of our economy and tremendous developments in technology and the information revolution and so forth. So it's a different era, a different time. I still am a skeptic, I suppose, oftentimes about government programs. I'll never get over that. But I certainly am more prepared today to support spending on various programs -- as long as it's within the overall confines of what we can afford - than I was ten or fifteen years ago.
DICK CHENEY: Well, it's a party that I think the governor's really began to shape in Texas - is as good a place to go as any to look at it. I would say one of the prime issues this year is going to be education and that we've seen very positive results in Texas as a result of his activities down there. It's probably got a heavier dose of domestic policy, if you will, than what we focused on as much when I was in the Congress fifteen or twenty years ago back in the 80s when we were faced with the specter of the possibility of all-out global nuclear war with the Soviet Union. So that emphasis has shifted, but it's very much as the governor's defined it too - focused on this notion that we are in a time of unparalleled prosperity; we've seen enormous economic growth and development in the country. And, yet, there still are people left behind that we have not - because of partly the failures of our educational system - been able to bring in, bring along, if you will, to the party as many people as we'd like to, that we find ourselves going outside, encouraging immigration to come into the United States, which we're not opposed to; we encourage them to come in to take jobs it would be nice if American kids could be trained for.
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| Cheney on education and affirmative action | |||||||||||
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DICK CHENEY: It does, but always with a proviso - and I've heard the governor use this statement now many times on the stump - that he's not running to be the federal superintendent of instruction; that's still essentially a state and a local responsibility. Most of the funds are still going to be generated at the state and local level. And we want control at the state and local level, but, to the extent that the federal government does spend money on education, we want accountability; we haven't had that in the past.
That's a very revolutionary proposal, but what it means is a greater degree of performance and accountability on - JIM LEHRER: And you're comfortable with that? DICK CHENEY: I'm comfortable with that. He's also advocated some improvements, for example, in Head Start, that we spend more money on Head Start, aimed specifically at providing academic content for Head Start, math and reading, that we haven't done in the past. So, again, if you look at all of our priorities out there, you'll see the fact that we do have a surplus; we can do several things. We can cut taxes, and that's a key part of the program. We can spend more on education; we can address the need to reform and preserve our Social Security and our Medicare systems. And those are things you can think about and seriously contemplate because we do, in fact, have large surpluses that we didn't have ten years ago. JIM LEHRER: So if somebody says, hey, wait a minute, Cheney voted against Head Start, he voted against setting up the Education Department, now he's on the other side, that is the result of what? DICK CHENEY: Well, I think you have to look at context. I'm - I did vote against the creation of the Department of Education; I did vote against Head Start back in the 80s; I also voted for it at one point when Al Gore voted against it. But the - I think the important thing to keep in mind as well too is that we have learned a lot about what works in education. We do know that the system today, the public school system today still leaves a lot to be desired. I grew up in a small town in Wyoming. I was educated in a public school system in the 1950s; I got a fantastic education - much harder to do today because the schools need reform. And we're prepared to commit the resources to see that that happens, but at the same time insisting on accountability. This isn't just a check writing exercise where you send money out to a bureaucracy that doesn't work. We've got - you've got to reform the system as well.
DICK CHENEY: Well, I've just had mixed feelings on it over the years. I think in some cases it has produced positive results. I like what's happened in Texas, though, where we've seen, for example, in the institutions of higher learning, where we've gotten away from the notion of special access, if you will, for minorities and rather focused on the fact that we'll take the top 10 percent from any school and guarantee them an education in Texas institutions of higher learning. It achieves the same result. It does, in fact, get access for a very large number of students from the minority population into those systems without operating in a way that discriminates against individuals. One of the problems, of course, with affirmative action in the past has been sometimes it's had the effect of discriminating against the others who were non-minorities, even though they had the same test scores or better test scores; they would be excluded - somebody who had less capabilities would be allowed in. So it's been a problem obviously in the past in terms of how to administer it fairly. I do think that we've - we've probably achieved significant results from affirmative action in many areas. I know my friend, Colin Powell, is a big advocate of affirmative action. JIM LEHRER: Do you have any problems with what he said about it the other night or -
I think he's demonstrated, as a result of all of his years of public service and his time in the military, that he is a man of deep conviction and that we Republicans need to be reminded of what our obligations are as a national party. JIM LEHRER: After that - after his speech - he sat down with Gwen Ifill for our program, and he essentially said that the Republican Party has to do more than just cheer him when he speaks; they've got to go out and - and not have litmus tests on affirmative action, even on pro-choice, that - do you agree with that? Are there certain things that are - that should be requiring somebody to say they're Republican and there's affirmative action pro-choice - what list would you make or give to say, hey, if you're going to be a Republican, you've got to believe this, this, this, this? DICK CHENEY: Well, I wouldn't put together a list like that, first of all. I think there's got to be room in the party for people with a wide variety of views on the difficult, tough issues of the day, whether we're talking about affirmative action, or we're talking about the life questions or national security or tax policy, or whatever it might be. I think there has to be room within the Republican Party for a broad range of views.
Those kinds of concepts and broad principles, have been the hallmark, if you will, of the Republican Party over the years, equality of opportunity, and we need to focus on those issues. |
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| Compassionate conservatism | |||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: Do you think Governor Bush was right to stick the word "compassionate" in front of conservative? DICK CHENEY: I do. JIM LEHRER: Was it necessary?
JIM LEHRER: And does it explain what you're about too? Do you believe that conservatism needed this reinforcement - say, hey, wait a minute, we're compassionate too? DICK CHENEY: I think it's been a very positive development. You know, one of the difficult things that you've got to deal with, if you're going to put together a national coalition, you've got to find some way to encapsulate, if you will, a belief, set of beliefs, a set of attitudes and philosophy about what you want to do as a governing coalition, and there has to be a broad enough definition that covers those principles so that you can put together a majority. And what we've got within the Republican Party today, I think, is a governing majority for the nation. The task of political leadership in that kind of a setting is, in fact, articulate a philosophy, articulate a vision for the country, and get people to sign on board to support it; he's done that very successfully. |
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The competition |
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| JIM LEHRER: What is your reaction to President Clinton's
attacks on Governor Bush?
DICK CHENEY: I hope he keeps it up. JIM LEHRER: You do?
I would guess -- I'm just speculating - but that the Gore camp's not all that happy to have Bill Clinton out there every day mixing it up. JIM LEHRER: But from your point of view, more the merrier? DICK CHENEY: Well, we're going to run a positive campaign; we're going to run about the future; but every time Bill Clinton goes out and attacks us, and he's attacked me this week too, it's just a reminder to everybody of the problems, I think, that we've had during the Clinton-Gore years, and we'll let them, spend all day, all Fall, if they want on that. JIM LEHRER: Finally, on that issue, on that question, there has been no Clinton bashing, end quote, at this convention up till now, and some of the folks in the hall are asking - was that a concerted decision, a clean decision, hey, let's don't do that? DICK CHENEY: I think it was - it's been a very conscious decision to make certain that we keep focused on sort of the positive message that we want to deliver and try to run a positive campaign. If you go back and look at Governor Bush's first run for governor of Texas, remember that he ran against Ann Richards, Ann Richards, who was famous for her comments about President Bush being born with nothing but a silver foot in his mouth, as I recall; Ann's a tough campaigner, no question about it. But, in the end, she failed in defending her record and running for reelection in Texas because Governor Bush, George Bush treated her as a gentleman and focused on issues and substantive matters and didn't get down into the gutter, so to speak, of taking cheap shots at the competition.
I don't know that we're ever going to get the Democratic leader in the House of Representatives, for example, to endorse George W. Bush for the election, but we can go a long way we think to change the tone and restore a degree of civility and improve, if you will, the prospects for governing in the nation's capital. |
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| Cheney's expertise | |||||||||||
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JIM LEHRER: I said finally - one more finally - your expertise, of course, you have many expertises, but most particularly defense and foreign affairs areas - are you satisfied that George W. Bush has the expertise, the experience, and the judgment to be commander in chief?
I've been involved in the effort; George Schulz has been involved in the effort. I come out of the Ford-Bush administrations; George Schulz came out of the Reagan administration. Then people like Larry Lindsey and Wolfowitz and Condi Rice and folks who've got a broad range of experience and I think those are the people he would draw upon when it was time to govern. That's exactly as it should be. I think he's been a very good judge of people; and he's great to work with in this regard because he's a quick study. He's not afraid to ask questions, and I think he'll be very, very effective as commander in chief.
DICK CHENEY: No. I think - there are legitimate questions to ask. You've got to watch to see how a candidate operates and what his beliefs are and what kinds of people he bring around him, how he talks about the issues, but I think - I think he'd be very effective as President. JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much. DICK CHENEY: Thank you, Jim. |
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DICK
CHENEY: It's good to be back.
DICK
CHENEY: Not uncomfortable, I don't think. I'm basically a soft-spoken
man of few words; that's my heritage. That's the way I was brought up
in the West, and not somebody who's a giver of spearing - political
speeches; that's not my stock and trade. 
JIM
LEHRER: But you don't - you're not suggesting that it's not relevant,
how -
DICK
CHENEY: Far right - you know, that's a value - I'm a conservative Republican
and I believe in limited government. I believe in the constitutional
right to bear arms and a strong national defense. 
And
clearly they have; we don't have the Cold War anymore. The Soviet Union
imploded ten years ago. We've got a different set of military and defense
needs and requirements today. We've got a budget surplus today. 
JIM
LEHRER: Then you or George W. Bush or anybody here in Philadelphia or
anywhere else speaks of - as everybody is - the new Republican Party.
Define it. What is it?
He's
made it clear with his proposal, for example, with Title I funds that
are spent by the federal government for disadvantaged students in those
schools that have special populations like that if they don't get results,
that ultimately the funds ought to be given to the parents to find other
alternative means of educating their kids.
We're
not looking for some kind of litmus test that has to be imposed. I do
think generally the party ought to appeal on the basis of a broad philosophy,
that we believe in opportunity for individuals, that we do believe that
the greatness of our society resides in our individuals and in our communities,
not in a central government, that a central government that is too powerful
is, in fact, a threat to our freedom, and, so, therefore, we have to
be cautious and careful about how much authority we vest in the central
government. 
DICK
CHENEY: Well, I think he obviously has won the right, if you will, by
virtue of his success in the primaries and organizing a national campaign
and now about to become a candidate for President of the United States
to articulate his beliefs, to lay out an agenda to help shape the philosophy
of the party, and I think the phrase "compassionate conservative"
goes a very long way to explaining what he's all about.
DICK
CHENEY: I really think they'll watch it operate. It looks to me like
a man who is fearful that his time on the stage is about over and he's
having difficulty coming to grips with that, and he's still engaged
- wants to engage, if you will, in the kind of political partisanship
that he sometimes has been part of in the past, and he simply can't
let go.