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| Originally Aired: March 19, 2008 |
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Americans Divided Over Mission, Scope, Future in Iraq |
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| Five years into the Iraq war, Americans remain divided over why we invaded, degrees of success and failure, and how to bring the troops home. The NewsHour's Big Picture election series now brings together a group of citizens to discuss the war's effect on their lives and America's place in the world. |
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JUDY WOODRUFF: The NewsHour began its Big Picture series last November, as part of our coverage of the 2008 presidential campaign. We wanted to see how important national issues were being played out on the local level. We've gone to six states so far and talked with dozens of voters. Our focus was primarily on a variety of economic issues, but the war in Iraq loomed large in most of our discussions. So on this fifth anniversary of the war, we brought 10 of those voters from across the country here to Washington to talk about the war and the economy. We met Mark Harris during our Colorado discussion on immigration. He's an independent from Grand Junction, where he's a seed farmer. MARK HARRIS, Colorado Independent: Our border policy on an economic perspective is we've had two signs. And we've had, you know, "Help Wanted" and "Keep Out." JUDY WOODRUFF: Christy Rodriguez, a Republican, is a home educator from Greeley, Colorado. CHRISTY RODRIGUEZ, Colorado Republican: I think that many of the proponents for illegal immigration are really promoting a slave labor economy. JUDY WOODRUFF: Roberta Berthold, a Democrat, was on our California roundtable discussion about the economy and the housing crisis. She is a mortgage loan officer in Los Angeles. ROBERTA BERTHOLD, California Democrat: There's another thing floating around Washington right now is to do a big bailout. Why should we have to bail out those investors? JUDY WOODRUFF: Lori Staehling, a Republican, is a real estate agent from San Diego. LORI STAEHLING, California Republican: That is the biggest question I get: When is the bottom of the market? And what I have to tell them over and over -- and I really believe it -- is we never know when the bottom is until we've gone long past it. JUDY WOODRUFF: In Arkansas, Mark McLain talked to correspondent Tom Bearden about the very real impact of globalization. He had lost his job at a Whirlpool plant in Fort Smith last year. MARK MCLAIN, Arkansas Independent: It's a struggle. Yes, it's a struggle. My wife and I talked about it, and we knew it was going to be a struggle. But we're going to, you know, suck it up and do what it takes and make it work. JUDY WOODRUFF: John Maycroft, an independent and a graduate student at Rutgers University, joined our panel on health care in New Jersey. JOHN MAYCROFT, New Jersey Independent: I'm going to graduate in May. I'm going to have to find a job. And I need to find a job with health care coverage. JUDY WOODRUFF: Terra Cole talked about spending priorities when we were in Minneapolis. She's an independent who works for Hennepin County. TERRA COLE, Minnesota Independent: In order to be secure abroad, we need to be secure at home. And what do you do to be secure at home? Make sure that people are fed, make sure that people are housed, make sure that people are educated. JUDY WOODRUFF: In our discussions, no matter what the topic, the war in Iraq was a driving force for most voters. Sherine El-Abo, a Republican, is a defense contractor from Clifton, New Jersey. SHERINE EL-ABO, New Jersey Republican: I'm concerned about the war on terror and how inciting the war on terror we have violated our civil rights here in this country, how our privacy has been intruded and violated, particularly targeting Arab-Americans and Muslims. JUDY WOODRUFF: Henry Lujan, also a Republican, is an Iraq war veteran. He is a code enforcement officer for the city of Las Vegas. HENRY LUJAN, Nevada Republican: That country is so vulnerable we cannot leave, because I promise you something right now: If we leave and we pulled out like they said, we will be right back in there. JUDY WOODRUFF: Verlinda Johnson, a Democrat, works for an Internet service provider and is the treasurer of the Nevada PTA. VERLINDA JOHNSON, Nevada Democrat: But we need to get out of there. I'm not saying we need to get out of there in a year; I'm not saying we need to get out in two years. But we need a plan of execution. HENRY LUJAN: I agree. VERLINDA JOHNSON: Because we went into the war without a plan of execution. There should have been a way when they designed the war for us to get out. |
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Verlinda Johnson
Nevada Democrat |
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 Yes. I do think they need a plan to get out. I am under the perception that we had no business in that war in the first place.
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Progress made vs. exit strategy
JUDY WOODRUFF: And welcome to all of you. Thank you for traveling here to Washington.Now, we've just heard some strong views on the war in Iraq, both pro and con. And on this fifth anniversary this week, Christy Rodriguez, I want to start with you. What are your thoughts on the war in Iraq? What does the war in Iraq mean to you? CHRISTY RODRIGUEZ: I think the war in Iraq is a lot different than most of the wars that we fight. I think the time of the big armies on the big battlefield is over. And I think we don't really understand that the enemy that we have, they have a desire for death, they have the means of destruction, and they have the mobility of an individual. And I think that's very hard for us to come to grips with as a nation, because we don't like to think of people like that. And for me, it's been a very personal issue. My brother went into the military, after he sat around for about a week and decided that he was going to do something about it after the towers fell. He sat around for about a week watching TV, watching what happened in New York. And he was just mesmerized. And he was determined to do something for his country. So I really took that to heart with him. And I'm very proud of him. And to me, he's a hero. And I'm not ashamed of him being in the military at all. JUDY WOODRUFF: Roberta Berthold, when you think about the war, what comes to mind? ROBERTA BERTHOLD: That it was a huge mistake. It was a mistake for us to go there in the first place, because what we were told our objective was, was to get the enemy and the enemy was not there. Yes, Saddam Hussein was there, but the enemy that attacked the Twin Towers was in Afghanistan. I personally believe -- and my husband is from Europe, and we have many heated conversations with how Americans are perceived in Europe, and they have the same type of attitude, which is it was all about the oil. It's all about money. There's a lot of other atrocities going on in the world. We didn't go into any of those countries and try and take over and save them and put in democracy. We went into Iraq because there was an agenda there to go in there and get the oil. And now, five years later, it's a disaster. You know, the people are not -- you know, the people are not freed. There's not a working democracy there. And enough is enough. JUDY WOODRUFF: Henry Lujan, you have some strong views. How do you respond to that? HENRY LUJAN: Well, it's easy for people that have never been over there to criticize what goes on over there. The people that want us there, my unit is right now there, boots on ground, for their third tour. And... JUDY WOODRUFF: When you say your unit... HENRY LUJAN: My 72nd -- the unit that opened up Abu Ghraib prison back in 2003, they're back over there again. And they're seeing that the people are shopping, the people are out playing, they're out in the parks. They want us there. You know, and the thing is, is that, like I said before, it's easy for everybody back here to criticize what goes on over there when they have actually no clue, because they're getting all their feedback from the television or papers. You know, but the feedback that I'm getting from my guys over there is that, you know, the infrastructure is being built. You know, they're working on getting their military, you know, situated so that we can pull out. But I think that we'll pull out when the military leaders states, not because of the politicians or being pressured by the citizens, to have us pull out, because of a vote or an election or something like that. JUDY WOODRUFF: Verlinda Johnson, we just heard you in the tape saying the United States needs a plan to get out. VERLINDA JOHNSON: Yes. I do think they need a plan to get out. I am under the perception that we had no business in that war in the first place. But I do feel that they should have a plan to execute. I'm not saying within the next month, within the next year, within the next five years. And I'm not understanding, also, when we say we're winning. We're winning how? Are we winning with our perception being Americans of what winning is? What is democracy to them? Democracy to them might not be the same thing as it is to me. So I'm wondering, what are we trying to do? Are we trying to get them to think like Americans think? Because we do have one set of process in how we think versus how someone else's think. And I think that's what we need to look at. Whose definition of democracy are we talking about? And what is democracy to them? |
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Lori Staehling
California Republican |
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| I do believe -- it's not covered enough -- that the people there are very, very happy, the majority of people that we're there to help save them and make their lives more safe. I think it's great.
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War a 'missed opportunity'
JUDY WOODRUFF: Lori Staehling?LORI STAEHLING: Well, I know one thing democracy probably isn't to them, and that's the killing of hundreds of thousands of people by the government there. And my understanding is that 100,000 to 200,000 people were killed by their government. I would hope to pray... JUDY WOODRUFF: You mean under Saddam Hussein. LORI STAEHLING: Under Saddam Hussein. And I would hope that, if that happened here in the United States, if our own folks couldn't stop it, that some other country would come in and help save us. And I think it's phenomenally admirable. It may not have been the country that needed us the absolute most, but it certainly was a country with a dictator who was incredibly dangerous, dangerous to his own people, dangerous to neighboring countries. And I am so proud of what our people are doing there. And I do believe -- it's not covered enough -- that the people there are very, very happy, the majority of people that we're there to help save them and make their lives more safe. I think it's great. JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Harris from Colorado, how does it look? And when you look at what's going on in Iraq, what comes to mind? MARK HARRIS: I think that the Iraq war was a missed opportunity for the United States to respond to an international threat and to very real atrocities that have been committed to the people of Iraq by their government. I think the approach that we have taken, with a largely and strictly military approach, was a mistake. And I view that the emphasis upon that perspective remains a mistake. JUDY WOODRUFF: The military, emphasis? Sherine El-Abo? SHERINE EL-ABO: I'm in a special situation, because, through my employer, many of my colleagues are Iraqis. JUDY WOODRUFF: You're a defense contractor. SHERINE EL-ABO: Yes. I work for a defense contractor. And the project that I'm working on deals directly with Iraq. And I have colleagues that are traveling back and forth to Iraq and back. Yesterday, one of my colleagues just came back and reported to me -- and she was born in Iraq, actually -- reported to me how much better things are and how happy people are. And at the present time, I think this is a humanitarian mission. It's a noble mission that this country needs to lead and is doing. Yes, they've made mistakes, but the objective and the mission is a noble one. And I applaud it. JUDY WOODRUFF: Terra Cole, do you see it as a humanitarian and a noble mission? TERRA COLE: I think it can be. The issue is, is that we're not being told what about it is humanitarian and what about it is noble. The press is so one-sided about a lot of things, but particularly when it comes to the war and sensationalizing and telling us what we're supposed to know, not so much what we want to know. So do I know that it's a noble mission? No. Do I know that it's humanitarian? No. Do I know that we, as the United States, are capable of performing and acting in those ways? Yes, but I have not been presented with any evidence of that, publicly or privately. And I think that's a travesty of the perception of the United States. We have not presented ourselves as a holistic nation and so we have created these dichotomies of either you're for it or you're against it. But, really, what are we there for? Is it about democracy? Is it about the oil? Is it about really giving the opportunities that we have in this country, making them available to those in another country who did not have that before? JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark McLain, how would you answer that? MARK MCLAIN: I believe that the Iraq war in the beginning was a feel-good, you know, retribution, "We're going to go get the guys that did this from 9/11." And I'm behind that 100 percent. I bleed American red, just like everybody in this room. But I'm afraid that over time our government has become skewed in their decisions for the reasons why the troops are there. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein, that was awesome. Our soldiers are heroes. They have freed a people from a dictator that was unlike anything, anything horrible, since probably the Holocaust. And that's great. But I want to make sure that we have a plan, you know, that there is an end in sight and that we're not trading blood for oil. And I'm not so sure that we're not too far from that now. Our military service personnel are -- they're doing their jobs and they're doing it well. And I applaud them. But I'm just afraid that our government may be overextending them. JUDY WOODRUFF: Does anybody else share that? LORI STAEHLING: Well, I would respond in a little differently. I think we have to finish the job. I don't think you go and destroy a government, which needed to be destroyed, and not let the new government be in place and be strong before we leave. To do that would leave chaos and leave the ability for the bad guys to take over again. And I think that would be worse. It would make all that we've done for not. JUDY WOODRUFF: John Maycroft? JOHN MAYCROFT: I just wish we'd had a plan going in as to how we were going to clean up after the mess of Saddam Hussein and all of that. And there just wasn't enough of a plan for winning the peace. One of the bigger things -- one thing that concerns me that I don't think is talked about enough is just how much this really has hurt our standing in the world and just how consequential it is. I taught in China for a couple of years and I actually got to teach an American civics class. And I taught the Bill of Rights and the freedom of speech and all of these things to, you know, people who hadn't had exposure to this stuff. And when I would talk about all these rights we have, they could just say, "Abu Ghraib," they could say, "Guantanamo." They could hold up these things that really just didn't match up with what America is supposed to stand for and what the Bill of Rights is supposed to guarantee. And the way that America is not maintaining relationships with other country is going to be very harmful. JUDY WOODRUFF: How much does America's standing matter, Henry Lujan? HENRY LUJAN: Well, my opinion is, is that -- I know that the people of the United States are tired of us being the world's police. But, unfortunately, that was something that's been bestowed on us since we've been a power, a superpower. We are the world's 911 and we'll always be there. We can have France, who didn't back us up or anything. But if they were being obliterated by a neighboring country, you don't think we'd be there if they had us on their "Fave Five" and called us? Of course we would. That's just the way it is. Now, you know, there's -- like my colleagues here are stating that they don't see anything coming out of it, like this lady had just said. You've got a family who can't go out and shop or go to a park or do anything because they're afraid of Saddam and his sons, Uday and Qusay. But now they're walking, and they're shopping, and they're playing and all that. I think that right there speaks in itself. That's something that we have that we take for granted here in this country. |
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Henry Lujan
Nevada Republican |
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| Yes, they said the weapons of mass destruction. Me, that's metaphorically speaking. The weapons of mass destruction to me were Saddam and his kids. |
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Fighting an ill-defined foe
CHRISTY RODRIGUEZ: They've actually voted since we've been there. Before, they had one political party that you had to belong to or die.And I don't understand where we're getting blood for oil when oil is at an all-time record high right now. If we were getting oil out of it, why are we paying so much for gas? Why are we still paying so much? And the other thing is it took us, in response to what you said, it took America eight years after the American Revolution to set up our government. And we didn't have parties that were killing each other here. This thing has been going on for an extended period. We can't expect them to just clean up their act and get it together in six months. They have a lot of baggage. HENRY LUJAN: They said that -- when we went to war after 9/11, it took 16 months, almost 18 months for us to go to war, which was authorized by Democrats and Republicans. You know, let's go and find out who did this and blah, blah, blah. Yes, they said the weapons of mass destruction. Me, that's metaphorically speaking. The weapons of mass destruction to me were Saddam and his kids. SHERINE EL-ABO: Exactly. JUDY WOODRUFF: Verlinda... HENRY LUJAN: That's who the weapons were. So we went in... VERLINDA JOHNSON: A couple of issues here. First of all, the weapons of mass destruction, if you're bringing it to the American people, they actually thought that there were weapons of mass destruction, not what a military standpoint is on that. Second issue that I have with this is we are the world's police, but does that mean that, when someone don't agree with us, we go into their country and do whatever we want? I don't think so. SHERINE EL-ABO: No, when they attack us. When they attack us and they do us harm. VERLINDA JOHNSON: Wait a minute. But did Saddam Hussein attack us? I'm confused. I didn't think it was him. HENRY LUJAN: I'm sure he was in line. He tried in '93. VERLINDA JOHNSON: He was in line, and so was a couple of other people. SHERINE EL-ABO: Saddam didn't do it personally obviously. VERLINDA JOHNSON: That is true, but did he do it? The person who actually took responsibility... HENRY LUJAN: No, but that's what we're told. That's Osama bin Laden. VERLINDA JOHNSON: We're still looking for him. HENRY LUJAN: That's who everybody assumes. VERLINDA JOHNSON: That's who we're still looking for. And we haven't found him. HENRY LUJAN: You don't think we don't know where he's at? I'm sure we do. VERLINDA JOHNSON: Well, here's my question for you... TERRA COLE: I don't know about that. If we can't find... HENRY LUJAN: We found Hussein in a hole in the middle of a desert. TERRA COLE: But we have... JUDY WOODRUFF: Terra Cole? TERRA COLE: We have a really hard time of finding local terrorists and people from the '60s and '70s hiding in plain sight in the United States, so I can't really say that we would know where he is. But I think that we have to look at this from two different perspectives. I think that, yes, Saddam needed to go and we probably should have done it the first time we were there in Iraq. I mean, I think a lot of people can agree with that. It didn't happen. OK, so he's still there. The second thing we have on the other hand is Afghanistan. Again, what is the information coming out about Afghanistan? What are we doing there? I have a friend from high school who went there to be a contractor. But after that, you know, you hear a little bit about Afghanistan. I don't know what's going on there. And for me, that was the attention that was paid. You've got Osama bin Laden. He's in Afghanistan. Why aren't we there? If that's not the real threat, then tell me what the real threat is, but also make sure that you're making a complete and holistic story. The media, the government has not created a story for us that has been holistic and not full of huge, cavernous holes that would lead the American public to be where we are right now, which is to be in extreme doubt about what we're doing, why we're there, and why we still choose to be there. |
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Mark Harris
Colorado Independent |
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| It's going to be hard to call anything that has cost as many American lives as it has and the American economy as much as it has and has created the humanitarian disaster in Iraq, it's going to be hard to call that a victory. |
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Cost of war also a big issue
JUDY WOODRUFF: Roberta Berthold?ROBERTA BERTHOLD: What keeps going through my mind is, at what cost? You know, no democracy doesn't happen overnight, but how much longer are we going to have to be there? Look at what is happening in our country, OK? We're taking care of people over here. What about taking care of the people we have over here? I mean, I'm from California. We are having a major budget crisis in California. They're going to be laying off teachers; they're cutting services left and right just to maintain the budget. You know, is there any help that we're getting from our federal government in that end? No, because there's not any money. Well, where is that money going? OK, I understand, you know, "Oh, well, we can't just leave. We can't do this; we can't do that." But what about us? What about us, the people who are paying the taxes who are there? You know, people are losing their homes. People are afraid of losing their 401(k) plans, which is what's going on, you know, today. You know, are we supposed to just stay there indefinitely at the expense of your typical American? CHRISTY RODRIGUEZ: Well, according to the Constitution, national defense is what we're supposed to be paying for. That is the one thing that our government is supposed to be doing, not bailing everybody out because they don't know how to live, not creating all of this... JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to hear what everybody is saying, so finish your thought and then we'll move to the next person. CHRISTY RODRIGUEZ: That is not what the government is here for. They're not supposed to be bailing us out. If the government wants to help us have a better economy, they need to tighten their belt like the rest of the known world does when we don't have enough money to spend. We cut spending. JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me move to ask all of you, how do you define success in Iraq? JOHN MAYCROFT: The cost we've already paid for this war, it's going to be really tough to define anything as a pure success. You know, stability in the region, democracy in Iraq, that would be great. But if you don't mind going back to the cost just a little bit, I don't think the government has been completely upfront with what the cost has been. We spent $500 billion just out of pocket from funding for the war, but $2 trillion or more in the long-term costs. And another thing that just deeply troubles me... JUDY WOODRUFF: That's what's projected. JOHN MAYCROFT: Right. And another thing that just troubles me enormously is how, you know, historically the ratio of wounded to dead has been something like 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, where -- you know, so the number of fatalities in Iraq is already troubling. But now the ratio, if I remember right, is something like 17 to 1. So you have so many more people coming home with serious, very horrible brain injuries that -- it's costly to them. It's costly to their families. It's costly to all of society. We're going to be paying for it for years. And I don't think that the wounded and the injured and the disabilities are going to come from that has -- I don't think we've addressed that enough. HENRY LUJAN: I'm a disabled vet. And my government stepped up to the plate and they've taken care of me, hands-down. JOHN MAYCROFT: And they should. And they should. HENRY LUJAN: They're paying me to go to school. I get paid to go to school with -- everything is paid for. I get -- it's called petty cash every month. I get my disability. They're going to assist and paying for my kids' education and all that. My thing is this: How do you put a price on our freedom and our protection? Let me put it this way: Since 9/11, have we been hit ever since then? No, because we're paying for all this. You guys, I'm sure, have your little securities, your ADTs and all that. You pay good money to have your house protected. Well, we're going to pay good money to protect the country, which is not as simple as your little 22,000-square-foot house. VERLINDA JOHNSON: Your story is unique, because I know disabled vets that came home from this war that lost their homes. The government did absolutely nothing. They're still fighting about getting benefits. So your story is kind of unique, based on what I've been hearing. And please understand me. I'm not saying that we should not be the world's police, but you let other countries join in. We should not have to foot the bill by ourselves in order to pay for this war. We should not have to sacrifice children's education or anything else in this country in order to take care of that war. JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to come back to Mark Harris and then move to a related subject. MARK HARRIS: You know, the definition of what success or victory in Iraq is, is certainly -- you know, we're hearing it from all kinds of different perspectives. If we have a presence there, whatever happens I think that that's part of what this whole election is about this time, is defining what our future role is going to be. I think most people would say that it's going to be hard to call anything that has cost as many American lives as it has and the American economy as much as it has and has created the humanitarian disaster in Iraq, it's going to be hard to call that a victory. Will we have successes? We will. We have had and we will continue to. But tactical successes, such as the surge seems to be, is not a strategic victory in any way. And we have to ask ourselves: To what ends do we continue to try to attain tactical victories? And until we can decide that, I think that we have very little direction in Iraq, and perhaps in the Mideast and in all of foreign policy. And without doing that, we don't have a clear direction forward. We have a success, we have a victory we need to win right here in Washington amongst the American people. What is our mission? Then let's do it. JUDY WOODRUFF: A clear divergence of opinions and we thank you all. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
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