DEFLATING RISK November 18, 1997 NEWSHOUR TRANSCRIPT

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After a government investigation, the Department of Transportation announced a new policy which will allow some people to disable their vehicles' air bags. Following a background report, Margaret Warner talks with Transportation Secretary Rodney Slater and then with industry experts about the new policy.

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A RealAudio version of this segment is available. NEWSHOUR LINKS: November 18, 1997 Rodney Slater discusses the new policy. April 29, 1997 Margaret Warner talks with two experts on the use and safety of airbags. November 22, 1996: A discussion of the federal guidelines for the use of air bags.the safety issues surrounding air bags. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of transcription issues. OUTSIDE LINKS National Highway Traffic Safety Administration page on airbags.

MARGARET WARNER: And now more from Andrew Card, a former transportation secretary under George Bush, now head of the American Automobile Manufacturers Association, and Joan Claybrook, president of the consumer group Public Citizen. She served as head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the Carter Administration. Welcome to you both.

Ms. Claybrook, Public Citizen and other groups originally advocated for air bags. Do you agree now that it was time for changes like this, some modification, this on/off switch?

Horizontal vs. vertical air bags.

JOAN CLAYBROOK, Public Citizen: Well, I think that the only reason that we're having to do this is because there are some air bags that aren't properly designed. And I do think that there are lots of differences between air bags. And, in fact, research of the performance of air bags on the road has shown that there are some air bag types that --and this is strictly the vertically-inflating air bag that crawls up the windshield--top-mounted right near the top of the windshield and crawls up the windshield. No deaths or serious injuries that we know of have occurred to women or children and as passengers--this is the passenger side air bag. And in the horizontal air bag, the one that's mounted right on the front of the dashboard and comes directly out, that's the kind of air bag in which all the deaths to passengers have occurred. So we think that we're in this situation because when design decisions were made by manufacturers that we wish hadn't been made--in fact, in 1989, Chrysler Corporation was going to put a vertical air bag in--they came to the Department of Transportation and told them that--and Ford and General Motors, they all agreed it was safer for out of position children, and then they never put them in, although Honda did put them in.

MARGARET WARNER: But do you agree that given the state of the situation now that this decision announced today is a good decision or not?

JOAN CLAYBROOK: Well, I think that the Department of Transportation really didn't have any choice. I think that the only other alternative was that for these special categories as individuals that you disconnect the air bag, and that's what's been going on for the last year, and you would apply to DOT and get permission to disconnect. I think that's wrong. I think that an on/off switch is far superior to disconnecting.

MARGARET WARNER: Altogether.

JOAN CLAYBROOK: Right.

MARGARET WARNER: And how do the car makers feel about this?

ANDREW CARD, American Automobile Manufacturers Association: Well, we recognize that the consumer has a significant concern, and we work with the Department of Transportation and with Joan Claybrook to address those concerns. People should understand--the air bag is a supplemental restraint system. It's designed to work most effectively when you're buckled up. We worked together with Joan Claybrook--other safety advocates--to better design our air bags. We now can put these less aggressive air bags, de-powered air bags into vehicles, and that was a significant positive step that we all worked together on. And now that we have cut-off switches available for those very, very limited number of people that might choose to use them is appropriate. We want people to understand they should not disconnect their air bag on a whim. Air bags do save lives, and only a very small number of the people who are in passenger cars should be disconnecting their air bags. Buckle up; push the seat as far back as you can, to the extent possible for children in the back seat, and you'll be safe. Air bags do save lives. You know, we've had over 2 million air bag deployments in the last number of years. We've had 90 horrible or about 90 horrible tragedies, but that's a very small percentage when you consider the number of air bag deployments.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now, you've said a very small percentage--and I'm talking now about people who should do this--and the secretary said the same. Can you quantify that any more? I mean, is it one family in ten, is it one family in twenty?

ANDREW CARD: I think it's far smaller than that. There are estimates that roughly 95 percent of the children who are sitting in the front seat of a car today can be sitting in the back seat of a car. Really, it's driver responsibility has to play a role, and drivers should be recognition--or should take recognition of how air bags work, the responsibility to buckle up, the responsibility to put children in the back seat, and people will have a very safe driving experience.

MARGARET WARNER: Do you agree that very few people should really do this?

JOAN CLAYBROOK: I do agree. I think that people will take a big risk if they disable their air bag or just turn it off when it should be on. And we actually--the manufacturers and consumers did appeal to DOT on a number of different occasions to narrow the scope of this decision because we don't want the public to misunderstand that this authorization or permission by the Department to have an on/off switch installed is a general enthusiastic support for doing so. It is not. It is just the opposite because there are a very limited number of people for whom this is needed, and those are the only ones who should apply. And I do agree that I think the American public is pretty smart and they're going to take this very seriously. It's also going to cost them up to $200, so that's going to be another slight deterrence. But we're concerned that the consumer does not have enough information with which to make a decision on this issue. I--

MARGARET WARNER: Meaning what exactly?

JOAN CLAYBROOK: Well, I think consumers need to know what kind of air bag they have in their car and we today petitioned--Public Citizen today petitioned the Department of Transportation to ask for that information to be made publicly available to the consumer, whether it's a vertical air bag or horizontal air bag.

MARGARET WARNER: You mean in the car?

JOAN CLAYBROOK: In their car, make and model.

MARGARET WARNER: How do the car makers feel about that?

Statistics debated.

ANDREW CARD: Well, first of all, there is no evidence at all that different air bag designs create different problems. Air bags have proven to be very, very safe and effective, except in these limited number of tragedies, but really there is no difference, if you look at the statistical evidence on these accidents, that would show any difference between a vertically deploying air bag or one that deploys right from the dashboard.

JOAN CLAYBROOK: I completely and absolutely disagree. Every single death has occurred in a horizontally-inflating air bag, and none have occurred in vertically-inflating, and we now have some thirty or forty million vehicles with passenger-side air bags. These are the passenger side.

MARGARET WARNER: What do you say to that?

ANDREW CARD: Well, first of all, we know that there are some 43 different models made by General Motors, for example, where there have been no reported air bag-related deaths, and that includes both vertically-deploying and some that are horizontal. So I don't think there's any statistical evidence that would suggest that there is a design flaw at all in these air bags that are in the marketplace today. In fact, all of the manufacturers are working hard to make sure the entire safety system of a vehicle works as a system.

MARGARET WARNER: But--

JOAN CLAYBROOK: In fact, more--companies are moving more and more to put vertical air bags in their cars. Ford has moved to do that. The Camry now has it--all the Honda cars--so a number of cars are moving--both U.S. and foreign cars are moving to put vertical air bags in.

MARGARET WARNER: Are you saying that car manufacturers would not--would oppose this petition that at least would require them to say, okay, this car has a vertically air bag or a horizontal air bag?

ANDREW CARD: We don't see any need for it. Consumers can ask questions of the dealer when they purchase the car. That information is available in the marketplace today. I don't think there's any need for government regulation on that matter.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now, let me--

JOAN CLAYBROOK: Can I just disagree on that for one second by saying that that's not the only piece of information. Some cars, the air bag inflates in an eight-mile-an-hour crash; some in an eighteen-mile-an-hour crash. And so we think that the inflation source, the trigger at which they inflate, as well as these other pieces of information, they've got five or six key pieces of information. When you put it together, you get a profile of the air bag, and we think the consumer is entitled to know what that is.

ANDREW CARD: That doesn't address--and could mislead the consumer. Again, automobiles are designed to be safety systems. The crunch zone and the crumple zone of the car itself, the design of the dashboard, the steering column, the steering wheel, the thickness of the seat, the safety belt, and air bag make up the safety system, and I'm concerned if people disconnect their air bag because of false information, it might compromise the safety integrity of that vehicle.

JOAN CLAYBROOK: I'm hoping they wouldn't do it. I was hoping that they would say, well, I don't need to, so I think that that might be the other answer to, and that people would not disconnect their air bags.

MARGARET WARNER: Briefly in the time we have left, do the car manufacturers have any concerns about this rule that went into effect today?

ANDREW CARD: We are pleased that the government has recognized it has a responsibility to limit the number of people that would be eligible for a cut-off switch to those who have true need. We are pleased that there is some recognition that there is driver responsibility for filling this form out and filling it.

MARGARET WARNER: Rather than liability for the car manufacturer.

A matter of safety.

ANDREW CARD: No. This is not about liability. This is about safety, and we know that the driving public is much safer with their air bag working than they are with it disconnected. And the vast majority of people who have passenger cars or light duty trucks, sport utility vehicles, mini-vans, should keep their air bag connected.

MARGARET WARNER: Thank you both very much.

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