SUPPORTING THE PRESIDENT

January 11, 1999

Leon Panetta, former White House Chief of Staff; Yvonne Scruggs-Leftwich, executive director of the Black Leadership Forum; Republican pollster Linda DiVall; and Ralph Reed, a Republican consultant and former head of the Christian Coalition, discuss why President Clinton remains so popular even as his impeachment trial begins in the U.S. Senate.

JIM LEHRER: Loyalty to President Clinton, what inspires it? That's the question raised by columnist William Safire in today's New York Times, and we raise it now. Safire wrote, "There he stands in the dock, impeached as a perjurer, certain of more censure, roundly denounced by even political allies for weaknesses that dishonored his office. Yet, not one of the yeas, who call themselves betrayed, has turned on him. Not one of his appointees has resigned in disgust. His wife steadfastly grasps his hand. His political party marches lock-step down the line to protect him, and the public stands by him more staunchly with each step towards historic shame. That's loyalty across the board, the likes of which this nation has never seen before. What's behind it?" We go for answers to that question to Leon Panetta, former Clinton chief of staff; Yvonne Scruggs-Leftwich, executive director of the Black Leadership Forum; Republican pollster Linda Divall; and Ralph Reed, formerly head of the Christian Coalition, now a political consultant and strategist. JIM LEHRER: Leon Panetta, how would you answer Safire's question, what's behind this unusual loyalty to President Clinton? LEON PANETTA, Former Clinton Chief of Staff: Well, Jim, there are obviously a lot of reasons that go into something like that. I think the most important are several. Number one, it's the same reason that the public supports him, which is his focus on the issues, the economy and how well it's doing, and the fact that he continues to lead as president on the issues that people can care about the most. They understand his personal failing but, nevertheless, it is the issues they care about, and that's what the staff cares about, working on those issues. Secondly, it's the personal example that he sets by continuing to work at it day in and day out, regardless of the attacks. And when you see your boss doing that, it's pretty hard for you as a staff member to walk away from that. And lastly, it's the quality of the opposition, the more shrill, the more vocal, the more partisan the opposition, then obviously the more the line is drawn in the sand that you have to choose some sides and you've got to stick with where you're at because your boss is under opposition attack. JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with Bill Safire's overall premise that this is most mysterious and most unusual? LEON PANETTA: Well, I'm not so sure that it's that mysterious, particularly when you have 60 to 70 percent of the public supporting the president right now. I mean, I guess there are people that ask the question why has this held as long as it's held, but I also think that the answers are obvious. The obvious answer is that people care a lot more, and staff people care a lot more, about what's happening on the issues that are close to them, than what is happening on a personal failing of this nature. There's no question they're disappointed by his behavior and what he did; they still believe this comes down to lying about sex. I realize the legal arguments but at the core of this, it is lying about a sexual relationship. And if you have to weigh that versus his leadership on the issues, they're with him on leadership on the issues. JIM LEHRER: Linda Divall, do you agree with Leon Panetta, that the loyalty, the reasons for the loyalty are obvious? LINDA DiVALL, Republican Pollster: I think there are some underlying factors to this. There are the obviously political factors, such as the economy, such as the fact that the Democrats have not had a person in the White House since Jimmy Carter. There's also the fact, which should not be underestimated, of his wife's support. And let us not forget that support for this president really rebounded tremendously once she said there was a vast right-wing conspiracy, which the public still believes. There are also some significant cultural factors that should not be discounted - the 50 percent divorce rate. When we do focus groups, people shrug their shoulders and say, well, everybody does it, so they excuse them because of that. And secondly, there's the sense while people do not accept the lying, they certainly understand that if they were caught in such an embarrassing, humiliating position as Bill Clinton, they would lie and do whatever they could to protect their spouse as well. But I think the other thing where I absolutely agree with Leon Panetta is the quality of the opposition. The one thing that the Republicans have done is by scrutinizing the president's personal behavior - and nobody could possibly condone his behavior - it is absolutely reckless and should never have occurred in the Oval Office - but Republicans, I think, have made a very significant mistake here by invading the boundaries of privacy. And I think this is something that the party is going to have to live with as part of what is driving down party perceptions right now, and Republicans are really going to have to figure out a way to talk about family values without appearing to gaze into a person's private life because that is private and separate. JIM LEHRER: What about the additional issue beyond the public opinion polls and what the public thinks that the people round him - here again quoting what Safire said - are - or paraphrasing what he said - that none of his staff people, no members of the cabinet, nobody has said this is disgusting, I'm out of here? LINDA DiVALL: I have to say that I am really shocked by that. I think there are any number of examples of people that you would think would have registered some public disclaimer about his behavior and probably resigned. The fact that they have not says to me that either they really do believe that there are very private sexual matters, but I think most people - I should say most Republicans strongly believe that perjury has been committed lies have been perpetuated on the public that should not have occurred, and that is what is at the heart of this case before the Senate right now. JIM LEHRER: Ms. Scruggs-Leftwich, how do you come to - how did you answer the question? Why? What's behind this? YVONNE SCRUGGS-LEFTWICH, Black Leadership Forum: Well, I'm surprised. First of all, so far I'm pretty much consistently in agreement with both Linda - JIM LEHRER: We're in trouble here. YVONNE SCRUGGS-LEFTWICH: We're in trouble. I think that it's a very complex issue. I think it's lying about sex. I think people think it's lying about sex. I think people - the American people have a very interesting way of trying to assume that certain things might happen to them, and in evaluating things that are going on, they raise a question how would I feel were this me, and were this normal people, they would do exactly what the president has been accused of doing, and they would be outraged that someone was even asking them the question about their private lives and about sex that has nothing to do with their professional performance that would force them to lie. I think the credibility of the critics is very much an issue. I think people are looking at some who are railing against the president and feeling that not only are there skeleton - there are probably skeletons in their closets but they're acting out a much larger agenda than just the president's behavior that they're really, in fact, trying to undo the election of 1996, and they resent that. And so I think a large number of - a high number of approval votes for the president is a function directly of the personalization of the president's experience and the recognition that there's a great deal of hate that is driving this move against the president and the American people don't like it. You know, we know unfairness when we see it - and I think that there's a feeling that a lot of this has been very unfair. JIM LEHRER: And would you agree with Leon Panetta that the fact that so many people around him have also rallied to his side or failed at least to resign in protest publicly and all of that, that is a reflection of the public support as well, that if the public left him, they would leave him too? YVONNE SCRUGGS-LEFTWICH: Well, I think, in part, it's also a reflection of the complexity of personal decisions. This is not seen by many of the people around him as something that ought to undermine his presidency and, therefore, undermine the work that they have been doing as professionals. And I think that they are both bolstered by the general feeling in the public that this does not rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors, and they're looking at the issues that they're working on, on a daily basis, where this president is coming down on a number of these issues, what his positions are, and they're saying as compared with what the alternative might be, I choose to stay and to support this president. JIM LEHRER: Ralph Reed, first of all, to the question of being mystified, you've been a critic of the president from the very beginning about all of this. Does it surprise you that he's still there and that he enjoys such the loyalty from the people around him, as well as the American people? RALPH REED, Republican Political Strategist: Well, let me start with the question of the American people. First, Jim, I think the truth of the matter is that there's an awful big difference between pure job approval ratings, which for an incumbent president tend to track the performance of the economy. I don't mean to suggest that his popularity is due solely to the economy, but one of the great counter hypotheticals in American history is could Nixon have survived without the Arab oil embargo, without the oil shock, without hyperinflation, and without the worst recession since World War II. We'll never know, but what we do know is that the level to which scandals - particularly personal scandals - tend to be debilitating and fatal to presidencies - tends to be almost inversely proportional to the performance of the economy. And the fact is that whether Bill Clinton deserves credit or not. I personally think he's an accidental beneficiary, but whether you agree or disagree with that, he's been able to be lucky enough to preside over an economy that has been one of the strongest not only in the 20th century but in American history. And, you know, the fact of the matter is if you go back to Eisenhower and people asked him, what do you look for in a general, and he said luck. And I think Bill Clinton has been extraordinarily lucky throughout his political career. The second question that you raised, which is, what about the loyalty of the people around him? I'm not sure that I really buy into the thesis in its entirety. The fact of the matter is that Mike McCurry's exit - followed by some statements that he made both publicly and privately about a loss of confidence in the president, the fact that he felt he was "exasperatingly stupid." Erskine Bowles is no longer there. Rahm Immanual has left. George Stepanapolous has left. A lot of people have left, and some people have observed that he not only doesn't have the A-Team anymore, but he's got the C-Team. I do think it is interesting, though, that even as most of his departures have been quiet, and they haven't really made any kind of a moral statement, I think probably after he leaves office, people will feel more at liberty to speak more freely about the way they felt. I've talked to a number of those Clinton confidantes privately and have been really stunned at their sense of betrayal and the way they feel he let them down. But I think part of the reason was alluded to earlier - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - and I'm not going to benefit Ken Starr and Newt Gingrich right now. JIM LEHRER: Do you buy that? Do you think that's a very important factor here, that the enemy, or in other words his detractors, hurt their own case a lot more than they've hurt Bill Clinton? RALPH REED: I think there's certainly been some of that. I do think that there have been people who have remained loyal to Bill Clinton - not because of any personal affection for him but primarily because of their antipathy for his foes - and I've been told that by people privately. I think another reason for his popularity, which, again, as I argued, it would be interesting to see what happened if the economy were to dip - is the fact that the truth is, Jim, that after the '94 elections, Bill Clinton made such a dramatic move to the center and even to the right that he almost caused a whiplash to his own party. He signed a Republican welfare bill. He signed a Republican tax cut. He signed a Republican $9 billion increase in defense spending, and this week he announced that he was proposing a $1,000 tax credit for senior care that was in the Contract with America in 1994 and 1995, so at least part of his popularity is he's not proposing the liberal far left agenda that he proposed in '93 and '94. He's really moved to the center. He said the era of big government is over. He's presided over a balanced budget. He's presided over 2 million people leaving the welfare rolls. That's pretty much the Republican agenda with his influence. JIM LEHRER: Leon Panetta, none of the four of you have thus far said anything that there was anything special about Bill Clinton that has caused this loyalty. Each one of you have given some of the same answers, slightly different answers. You just heard what Ralph Reed said, it's issues, you said it was issues. You heard what he said. Nothing special, though, about Bill Clinton? LEON PANETTA: Well, it still depends on the - on the personality of the person in the quick office of the presidency - to carry this off as well, and this is a president who certainly because of the battles that he's fought throughout his political career is (a) very good at compartmentalizing and focusing on the business of the nation. That requires a very special quality. As I've often said, most people in that same position would have jumped in the Potomac a long time ago. That's not what he's made of. He's made of stronger stuff in the sense of sticking it out. Secondly, he is somebody who truly enjoys the challenge of the presidency. That's what he fought his whole life for. He loves these issues. He loves working with policy questions. He's committed to doing that, and he wants to establish a legacy built on those issues. Now I think one of the great anguishes he'll always bear is the fact that this impeachment will cloud his legacy, but nevertheless, he is somebody who is committed to working on the issues. Lastly, he is by virtue of the politician in him somebody who you can relate to and be sympathetic with as an individual. When he walks into a room, there's a certain magic there; people relate to him; they sympathize with him; they listen to what he's saying, and he conveys a sense that he really cares about what they have to say. When you have that kind of certain magic in the political business, it works to help you when you have to face this kind of crisis. JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Linda DiValle, there's some magic to this man too beyond all the other things that have been said? LINDA DiVALL: I think clearly a significant share of voters do, indeed, relate to Bill Clinton, his charm. I think there's also a rogue charm, if you will. I mean, voters knew going in what they were going to get with Bill Clinton, so they were not necessarily surprised by all this, although as more and more of the details have come out, I think they were more horrified that it occurred in the Oval Office. But I think the one thing that we - there are two things - is this about Bill Clinton and has he done something here that kind of gets him beyond this? I think one thing is that personally he is beyond change. And so he can go through this because he is not sitting back -you know, having great regrets about this. I mean, I don't think that's apparent at all from his words or his actions that he is particularly upset about this particular episode. And he certainly does not carry on that way whatsoever. I think the second thing is - again going back to the enemies in the Republican Party - let's not forget that the '96 campaign - besides beating Bob Dole - the other key pivot point for the Democrats was painting the Republicans as extremists, so they've been able to use that perception that they built in '96 and say that they're still being judgmental, they're imposing their views on others, they want to delve too much into people's private lives, and we believe that is out of bounds, and so that invasion of these boundaries of privacy I think is something that is also helping him. YVONNE SCRUGGS-LEFTWICH: Well, my three colleagues have described perceptions from the point of view of the president. And I want to come back to perceptions from the point of view of the people out there, and I think that there is a feeling among people who are supporting Bill Clinton that he honestly and deeply cares about the issues that he has addressed. I think that certainly in the African-American community there's a strong feeling of kinship and comradeship that is shared between the president and a large 85 percent of the African-Americans who were polled by the joint center said that they fully support the president's performance and many of them support him as a leader. So from the perspective of the viewers, those who are evaluating the president, there is as compared to what - it is that all things taken into consideration - he's a better guy in the White House than he would be out and furthermore, there's a strong feeling that we're better off that he's there than we would be were he not. JIM LEHRER: But then quickly before we go, Ralph Reed, there's just as strong feeling among folks who think - you do - negative - I mean, strong negative feelings about this man as well, correct? RALPH REED: Well, there's no doubt about it, and he resembles other presidents, like Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan, who've had that kind of polarizing effect even as they were overwhelmingly popular, but, again, Jim, I get back to my earlier point, I don't disagree with the point the others have made about his popularity, but I want to underscore, if you look at the polling, the job approval rating remains high, that is true, but if they ask whether or not they admire him as a person, it's a good 25 to 35 points below that, and I think the American people have a relatively - sadly in this case I think - utilitarian view of the presidency. He's to preside over the economy; he's to balance the budget and to be commander in chief, but I may not want him to marry my daughter. JIM LEHRER: All right. Thank you all very much.