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Margaret Warner talks with Stanley Kutler, a professor at the University of Wisconsin, about his book, Abuse of Power.

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MARGARET WARNER: From February 1971 until July of 1973, President Richard Nixon secretly tape-recorded thousands of private conversations with aides and public figures. Forty hours worth of those tapes were released in April 1974. The resulting public outcry contributed to the President's resignation four months later. Throughout his later years Nixon fought to prevent disclosure of the remaining tapes. Now, nearly a quarter century later, more than 200 hours of those protected tapes have been transcribed for the first time and issued in book form. The book is entitled Abuse of Power. The transcriber and editor is University of Wisconsin Professor Stanley Kutler, the man who sued and won release of the tapes last year. He joins us now. Welcome. First of all, tell us, how extensive was President Nixon's taping system?

STANLEY KUTLER, Author, Abuse of Power: Well, it operated in the Oval Office, in his annex office of the Executive Office Building. It was in the telephones. It was at Camp David. It was pretty well covered throughout his offices.

MARGARET WARNER: And did he control--did he turn it off and on?

STANLEY KUTLER: No. That's what makes Nixon's tapes unique. They were voice-activated. The other Presidents that we know who had tapes, they pushed the button, they recorded when they saw fit, and when they wanted to. They turned it off when they wanted. But Nixon's were voice activated. No doubt, he was aware of the taping system sometimes. Sometimes I think he and Haldeman had what I would consider to be contrived conversations clearly for the record. But other times, as you know, when you're being taped, sometimes you become oblivious to it, and you just go on. And he did.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now, briefly, how did you get access to these tapes?

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, the tapes were ready. They had been processed by 1987, and the National Archives promised an imminent release, which didn't come yet after five years. I had made numerous requests and finally thought there was no other place to go but to the courts, and along with Public Citizen, I filed suit--

MARGARET WARNER: That's an organization.

STANLEY KUTLER: Public interest law firm--filed suit in 1992, and the settlement came down four years later--two years after Richard Nixon's death. I have no doubt that Nixon's death enabled us to finally settle the case because in his lifetime I am certain he simply would not consent to the release of these tapes.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, explain why in the book almost all the conversations really only relate to Watergate.

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, to abuse of power is the technical term. That's mandated by law. Congress decided that in the 1970's, when they took over these materials. They said that the first release of material should be those materials relating to presidential abuse of power that occurred under the generic name of Watergate.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Well, now the first one we're going to listen to is on September 8, 1971, and that's really eight months even before the Watergate break-in, and we hear President Nixon and a top aide, John Ehrlichman. Give us the context for this conversation.

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, this is three months after the publication of the Pentagon Papers. Nixon is furious at the New York Times, other outlets, for leaking materials. Leaks infuriated him, drove him to the wall on any number of occasions. He sees the publication of the Pentagon Papers as some gigantic plot against him. MARGARET WARNER: All right. Well, now let's listen to this. And I should point out to our viewers that because under the terms of your lawsuit, these can't actually be broadcast, our correspondent Kwame Holman, it's going to be his voice we hear.

STANLEY KUTLER: Not for four years.

KWAME HOLMAN: September 8, 1971, 3:36 PM in the Oval Office: John Ehrlichman: "We had one little operation. It's been aborted out in Los Angeles, which I think is better than you don't know about. But we've got some dirty tricks underway. It may pay off." A few minutes later the President asked about using the IRS to investigate Democratic contributors. Nixon: "John, we have the power but are we using it to investigate contributors to Hubert Humphrey, contributor to Muskie, the Jews, you know, that are stealing every--what the hell are we doing?" Ehrlichman: "I don't know." Nixon: "Are we going after their tax returns? Are we looking in Muskie's return?". Ehrlichman: "No, we haven't." Nixon: "Hubert, Hubert's been in a lot of funny deals." Ehrlichman: "Yes, he has." Nixon: "Teddy, who knows about the Kennedys? Shouldn't they be investigated?" Ehrlichman: "IRS-wise I don't know the answer. Teddy we are covering.".

MARGARET WARNER: All right now, what does this conversation tell us?

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, we talks about the little operation that's been aborted out in Los Angeles. The little operation was the break-in by the plumbers of Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office. Ellsberg is the man, of course, who made the Pentagon Papers available. Nixon, two years later, justified this as a national security operation.

MARGARET WARNER: And all this is way before the Watergate break-in?

STANLEY KUTLER: This is Watergate before Watergate, by all means, yes.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now the next one we're going to listen to is June 21, 1972, and this is just a few days after the Watergate break-in, and now the President is with another top aide, Bob Haldeman, and again, set the scene for us. What was the purpose for this meeting?

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, this is to start discussing the implementation of the cover-up.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let's listen to it.

KWAME HOLMAN: June 21, 1972, 9:30 AM in the Oval Office: President Nixon: "What is the dope on the Watergate incident? Anything break on that?" H.R. Haldeman: "There's nothing new." Haldeman continued. "The question that John and I raised, both of us, have been trying to see whether there's something that we can do, other than just sitting here and watching it drop on us bit by bit as it goes along. Nixon: "Think of anything?". Haldeman: "John laid out a scenario, which would involve this guy Liddy at the committee confessing and taking, moving the thing up to that level, saying, yeah, I did it, I did it. I hired these guys, sent them over there because I thought it would be a good move and build me up in the operation. I'm the little guy." Nixon: "You mean, you'd have Liddy confess and say he did it unauthorized?" Haldeman: "Unauthorized. You establish the admission of guilt at a local level and get rid of it, rather than letting it imply guilt up to the highest levels, which is, of course, what they're trying very hard to do. By they, the press and the Democrats." Nixon: "Well, sure it is. I understand that." Later, Nixon interjected: "My view is that in terms of the reaction of people, the reaction is going to be primarily Washington and not the country because I think the country doesn't give much of a--[expletive]--about it." Most people around the country think that this is routine, that everybody is trying to bug everybody else; it's politics.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, is this new information, the fact that the President was involved in the cover-up this early?

STANLEY KUTLER: Well, this is two days before the famous smoking gun tape, where Nixon and Haldeman discuss using the CIA to thwart the FBI investigation. But he also strikes another interesting theme here. He's convinced right away that the rest of the country will not be interested in it; this is just a Washington thing. It's a response that varies with different times. Sometimes he says, well, breaking and entering isn't a crime as long as you don't get anything that's very useful, and one time he says, well, breaking and entering Democratic headquarters is not really a crime. So—

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let's go on to another one. This is just six weeks later, and again, it's President Nixon and Haldeman in the Oval Office, and let's just listen to it.

KWAME HOLMAN: August 1, 1972: 11:03 AM in the Oval Office: President Nixon: "Let's be fatalistic about--[expletive]--thing." H.R. Haldeman: "If it blows, it blows." Nixon: "If it blows, it blows and so on. I'm not that worried about it to be really candid with you." Haldeman: "It's worth a lot of work to try and keep it from blowing." Nixon: "Oh, my, yes." Haldeman: "But if it blows, we will survive it." Nixon: "After all, Mitchell's gone, and nobody at a higher level was involved, the White House not being involved and all that stuff. And the Cuban crap in there. Are the Cubans going to plead ‘not guilty?'" Haldeman: "I don't know, but everybody is satisfied. They're all out of jail. They've all been taken care of. We've done a lot of discreet checking to be sure there's no discontent in the ranks, and there isn't any." Nixon: "They're all out on bail." Haldeman: "Hunt's happy." Nixon: "At considerable cost, I guess." Haldeman: "Yes." Nixon: "It's worth it." Haldeman: "It's very expensive. It's costly." Nixon: "That's what the money is for."

MARGARET WARNER: Now, you actually heard the voices here. Were they as confident as the words appear?

STANLEY KUTLER: The mood in this conversation--I remember distinctly--and I even noted that in the book--the mood shifts a lot here. One moment Nixon's full of bravado, full of--

MARGARET WARNER: That the hush money can take care of everything.

STANLEY KUTLER: Very confident about the hush money can take care of everything, but there seems to be a little bit of whistling in the graveyard here. Maybe I'm looking backward, reading history a little bit backward there, but the mood and the tone of the conversation does alter and change throughout, but here is clear, clear evidence of Nixon's knowledge of the payment of hush money.

MARGARET WARNER: Let me ask you this. At any time in these conversations, did the President ever say, "You know, this is really wrong?".

STANLEY KUTLER: There are a number of occasions he says things that are wrong. I--if I may borrow one of his phrases--I understand that. Richard Nixon did have a moral center. Richard Nixon did have moral values instilled in him by his mother, whom he always praised. I think he did know the difference between right and wrong. And there are times when he is saying, but it would be wrong, he knows it's wrong, and yet he goes ahead and does the other thing. But there's a clear recognition of that in his talk.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now we're going to go to a fourth day of conversations. We're actually going to have two. This is from April 28th of ‘73--so it's eight months after this hush money conversation. The President's at Camp David, and first we're going to hear--he's got a conversation with Ron Ziegler, his press secretary, and then two minutes later he calls Haldeman on the phone also.

KWAME HOLMAN: April 28, 1973, 8:21 AM: The President at Camp David: Ziegler: "Are Bob and John coming up today?" Nixon: "That's what they tell me. You know, I don't know. I don't know. As you know this is going to be a painful session. God, I don't--do you see--Jesus, what's your feeling on that?" Ziegler: "My feeling is the same, Mr. President." Nixon: "That they better move now, or the time will be gone?" Ziegler: "Yes, sir. I think so, absolutely. It seems it must be done." The President then telephoned Haldeman. Nixon: "I was wondering what time you and John could be up here?" Haldeman: "Well, I haven't talked with John yet this morning. We're both trying to finish up our written things." Nixon: "Bob, the most important thing that I have got to do is to make that speech, and I've got to get this, well, I'm not going to damn anybody. You know what I mean. Can I just--just in terms of my writing, which is terribly important," I've just got to go forward. Can I assume that the decision is made?" Haldeman: "Yes." Nixon: "I mean, you and John have made the decision, right?" Haldeman: "Yes." Nixon: "Now, if there's any reversal on the decision, I need to know."

MARGARET WARNER: All right. What are they talking about?

STANLEY KUTLER: There's so much going on here. This is April 28th. We're two days before Nixon comes on television to announce the resignation, so called, to Haldeman and Ehrlichman. And he's really dismissed. He has no choice at that point. He says it's like cutting off his two arms at that point. These days--he goes up to Camp David for several days beforehand. He's distraught. You can hear it in his speech. You--

MARGARET WARNER: And the speech he's talking about is the one he's going to make this announcement.

STANLEY KUTLER: Right. Right. And he's just terribly distraught the days before, but this is a terribly emotional moment for him.

MARGARET WARNER: And you can see it even in all of his broken sentences.

STANLEY KUTLER: Yes. They're just not very coherent. But you hear it in his voice. It's very apparent. Now, the last one we're going to listen to is a very brief excerpts from just three weeks later. It's May 16th of ‘73, and the President's in the Oval Office with his new chief of staff, Alexander Haig. Let's listen to that one.

KWAME HOLMAN: May 16, 1973, 8:45 PM in the Office: President Nixon: "We have to realize they're not after bob or John or Henry or Haig or Ziegler. They're after the President--[expletive]--[Shit!]--That's what it's all about. You know that--they want to destroy us." Alexander Haig: "Yeah. What they're hung up on, they're really in a dilemma up there. They want to get you and yet they don't. And that's tough for them too." Nixon: "You know, it's ridiculous that the President of the United States has to spend his time for the last almost two months worried about this horse's ass crap. Unbelievable!"

STANLEY KUTLER: There are two things here: One, it shows the remarkable resiliency of the man. This is just after being distraught and depressed when he's firing Haldeman and Ehrlichman, and on May 1st, he's back fighting, the favorite metaphor of his life, to fight. He's clearly doing it. Yet, there is a distraught note in here. He says that no one will believe the President of the United States has had to spend all of his time the last two months dealing with this crap, as he calls it. Indeed, you begin to see how April and May--this is just consuming his presidency and his time.

MARGARET WARNER: If you had to sum up, as an historian, what's the most important thing about these tapes, what is it? What's the most significant thing you get out of them?

STANLEY KUTLER: I think that we get, for example, very clear knowledge of Nixon's role in and knowledge of the cover-up. We get knowledge of a cover-up of the cover-up. The most important thing is I think that we have a number of occasions here where the President clearly confesses that the reason why he has to cover up is that he cannot bear--it's excruciatingly painful for him to publicly admit that he was condoning illegal break-ins in the Houston plan, the Ellsberg thing that clashed so violently with this image that Richard Nixon had so carefully nurtured for 25 years of "Mr. Law and Order." And he was at odds with that image. And you just hear the pain in his voice describing those things.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Well, Stan Kutler, thanks very much.

STANLEY KUTLER: You're welcome.

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