A HISTORIC VOTE

October 7, 1998
	The U.S. House of Representatives is expected to vote for an impeachment inquiry into the Lewinsky matter Thursday. Jim Lehrer discusses the vote and its meaning with a panel of representatives.

Oct. 6, 1998: Regional commentators discuss the impeachment issue Oct. 5, 1998: The Judiciary Committee votes to begin impeachment proceedings. Oct. 4, 1998: Election '98: The National Report Oct. 4, 1998: How impeachment is impacting two races. Oct. 4, 1998: A full report and debate on the politics of impeachment Sept. 22, 1998: Members of the House Judiciary Committee discuss President Clinton's videotape testimony. Browse the NewsHour's full coverage of Congress and the Starr investigation   U.S. House of Representatives U.S. Senate White House	JIM LEHRER: Now to four of the 435 members of the House who will be voting tomorrow: two Republicans, George Nethercutt of Washington State, and Zach Wamp of Tennessee; and two Democrats, Chaka Fattah of Pennsylvania, and Gene Taylor of Mississippi.
	Three votes for the inquiry, one against.
	JIM LEHRER: First, let's just go around. Congressman Wamp, how are you going to vote tomorrow? REP. ZACH WAMP: I'll vote yes. I think it's clear we should move forward, and there's bipartisan consensus that the inquiry should go forward. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Nethercutt. REP. GEORGE NETHERCUTT: I'll vote aye, Jim. I think that we can't turn our kids away from the information that the Judiciary Committee has received already, and I think it's justifiable that we look further. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Fattah. REP. CHAKA FATTAH: Well, I'm going to vote, along with the majority of the American public, who want this foolishness to stop. I'm going to vote no. And I think that this Congress at some point will have to turn its attention to legislating, rather than investigating. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Taylor. REP. GENE TAYLOR: I'm going to vote for the inquiry. JIM LEHRER: All right. Now you're a Democrat. Why are you voting the way you're going to vote?
	REP. GENE TAYLOR: Because I have reason to believe the president perjured himself. And I think we ought to go forward and see if he really did. But in my heart I think he intended to mislead the American public; it was done under oath; and perjury is a very serious crime that's punishable by five years in prison. It is - telling the truth in the courtroom is the basis of our American legal system. We try to pass good laws. Policemen try to enforce them. District attorneys press charges. Juries have to vote on right and wrong in a courtroom. If we say it's okay for the people who go before the courtroom to lie, we pull the whole chain apart, and I can't be a party to that.
	Has the president committed an impeachable offense?
	JIM LEHRER: So your vote tomorrow should be read as you're saying I believe the president committed an impeachable offense, not just to start an inquiry? REP. GENE TAYLOR: Well, let's put it the other way. You know, if I think he committed perjury, which I do, how can I vote any other way? JIM LEHRER: Congressman Fattah, should your vote tomorrow be read as if you believe - you do not believe the president committed an impeachable offense?
	REP. CHAKA FATTAH: I think it should be read the same way when all of us voted that Speaker Gingrich should be censured by the House, even though he admitted that he had misled and provided inaccurate information to the House Ethics Committee. I'm on the Ethics Committee. It was clear then and it's clear now that it was an offense. However, we felt that the known good outweighed the known bad, and that we were going to be mature about this. That's where the American people are on this issue. The president misled the public. He admitted he misled the public. He had a girlfriend. There's a desire to punish him. I don't think we should punish our country, our economy, or our system of government by going through this - this impeachment process, when we know at the end of the day in the Senate, there's no vote - there's no 2/3 of the Senate that's going to impeach him. So we're going through this masquerade. I guess it's close to Halloween but I think the public would like us to get to their work. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Wamp, are you voting because you feel the president committed an impeachable offense, or it's only for the inquiry? REP. ZACH WAMP: Tomorrow's for the inquiry, to start the process, and then if the resolution vote comes about later, I think both votes really are an individual vote of conscience based on how we determine our own oath of office, based on how we see the rule of law, and how we think the House should respond based on the Constitution, and so I think, frankly, there's a lot of noise out there among the American people and through the media, and actually from people trying to influence this process. But this comes down to 435 people in the House and then maybe 100 Senators -- we don't know -- making an individual call based on their own particular oath of office and how they believe they need to uphold the Constitution.
	Party loyalties.
	JIM LEHRER: Congressman Nethercutt, much has been said here about partisan, non-partisan, bipartisan or whatever. Would you be voting the way you're voting tomorrow if the president involved with the exact same charges were a Republican? REP. GEORGE NETHERCUTT: I would hope I would, and I would expect I would, Jim. I think we have to have some blinders on in this case. We have to judge the facts as we see them. We have to judge the issues, regardless of party affiliation. I know there's going to be an attempt to - you know - I guess polarize Republicans versus Democrats on this issue. I think what we're looking for and what I will expect is more Gene Taylors and other Democrats who look at this, regardless of party affiliation, but on the facts and on the merits. It's a very personal decision. It's a very serious decision. And I'm going to actually size it the way I see fit. And if it were Republican, I believe I would exercise it the same way. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Taylor, you are a Democrat and yet you're going to vote with the Republican -- REP. GENE TAYLOR: I'm going to vote for what I think is best. This is not a partisan issue. And if ten years from now a Republican president does the same thing, I hope my constituents know I'm going to vote the exact same way. JIM LEHRER: Excuse me. I'm sorry. Are you catching any heat from your fellow Democrats? REP. GENE TAYLOR: There are 206 Democrats in the House of Representatives. Of those 206, two of them have made snide remarks. I think that's pretty remarkable for the other 203. JIM LEHRER: Snide remarks along what lines? REP. GENE TAYLOR: We'll just leave it at that. JIM LEHRER: Has somebody from the Democratic leadership, or the White House, said, hey, come on, Taylor, you're a Democrat, do the right thing? REP. GENE TAYLOR: I think they know that I'm doing the right thing. JIM LEHRER: No. But I mean do the right thing for the party. REP. GENE TAYLOR: You just answered my question. They know that I know that I'm doing the right thing. JIM LEHRER: Okay. But nobody has said to you, Congressman Taylor - has nobody called on you as a Democrat to vote against this proposal because you're a Democrat? REP. GENE TAYLOR: I had a conversation along those lines yesterday, and I said I came here to serve the American people. You know, all of those kids who died in Vietnam, all those kids who died in Normandy, they didn't die for the Republican Party; they didn't die for the Democratic Party; they died for our country. The Constitution -- I took an oath of office to this country, not to a political party, and I think this nation would be much better served if 434 other congressmen came to the same conclusion, the sooner, the better.
	Listening to public opinion.
	JIM LEHRER: Congressman Fattah, what do you think of what Congressman Taylor's doing? REP. CHAKA FATTAH: Well, I think as Gerald Ford, who's a former Republican president, stepped forward and said this needs to stop and we should not proceed to impeachment, that as he crossed party lines to offer his opinion, my colleague and my good friend from Mississippi has every right to do so. There are a number of Democrats who from time to time vote with the majority. But the majority of Democrats tomorrow on this question, the vast majority, will vote not with the Republican Party but with the majority of the American people. And I think that we might have differing opinions about all of this, but I think we've heard from a host of people on both sides of the aisle as to what is in the national interest. We know when Nixon was forced out of office and resigned and we went through this impeachment process, it sent shock waves through our economy. If the same would have happened today, we're talking about 2 million jobs, not just in my district but in Gene Taylor's district -- we saw a 25 percent drop in the stock market in the Nixon circumstance. Are we prepared as a country to punish this president for having a girlfriend and misleading people about it by punishing innocent Americans? This is a weighty matter. And we should judge on all of the circumstances and think about what is in the national interest. JIM LEHRER: Should this vote tomorrow, Congressman Fattah, be judged - let's assume it goes the way everybody thinks it's going to go by - by - it's going to be passed - the Republican proposal is going to be passed with all the Republicans voting and maybe some Democrats, should it be seen as a Republican attempt to remove the president, a Democratic president from office? REP. CHAKA FATTAH: Democrat or Republican, I think it's going to be seen as the Congress has been seen in the past, that is, out of step and out of touch with the parties of the American people. This Congress has a set of, for instance, appropriation bills - nine out of the thirteen that haven't been passed and sent to the president even though we're days beyond the fiscal year. We have a set on HMO reform and patients bill of rights. There's work for this Congress to do. But we're going to set aside a day tomorrow to vote to inquire into the president, after we've already spent more than $40 million looking into - all of the facts are on the table. So whatever judgment this Congress really wants to make about the president's actions, we could make now. To say that we're going to play Dick Tracy and go out there and continue some inquiry when Ken Starr has subpoenaed every person who has any information and they have provided it under the threat of perjury, which Gene has talked about the importance of that, we have that information. This Congress, if it wants to be in a majority, they should be mature enough to step up to the plate and render their judgment now, not drag this out to the detriment of our country. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Wamp, what about that, what more is there to find out about this situation? REP. ZACH WAMP: Well we don't know. But, frankly, we've got an obligation to look into it. You know the economy comes and goes. A lot of things come and go. But the Constitution and the rule of law are both constant, and I really think we should respond today quietly, methodically, but out of a real commitment that 25 years from now we'll look back and say that we did the right thing based on our founding fathers and those that came before us. And this is all about what the Congress should do based on its constitutional role, based on the evidence that's been presented, not what's popular, or not. And we hate this. I don't know a single member of the House that likes this. This is the most difficult thing to be called on to do, other than the declaration of war. And we take it very serious. And I think we ought to be quiet and methodical and effectively, we ought to be slow to ever move in impeachment of a president. But if you have to do it, you have to move forward. JIM LEHRER: Have you, Congressman Wamp, just based on what you know about the case at this time, have you made a decision yourself? In other words, if you had to vote today, if you did what Congressman Fattah says, hey, all the information is out there, we can vote today, would you vote to impeach President Clinton? REP. ZACH WAMP: I intentionally -- when this started --decided to glow slow, read, learn the evidence, and wait for the Judiciary Committee, I was hopeful all along that there would be some bipartisan integrity that would set into this process so that this is never a partisan exercise. I wholeheartedly agree with that, and I've intentionally waited and I'm going to wait to make an ultimate decision because the evidence has to be presented and the process must be held up. This is nothing that we should decide on Larry King Live. This is an important process for the history of the country. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Nethercutt, what's the state of your - the openness of your mind on the issue of whether or not President Clinton committed an impeachable offense - tonight? REP. GEORGE NETHERCUTT: My mind is open. I think it would be improper for me to make my judgment today on the evidence against president and vote for impeachment. And this is the reason why. My sense is we don't know what the facts are completely. We've gotten a version of the facts from Kenneth Starr, and I've read that report. And it's a damning report against the president. The president hasn't really had a chance to defend himself, or we haven't had a chance to cross-examine witnesses who may have testified in a grand jury proceeding, which is much different than a jury trial or an inquiry. So I have not made up my mind, and I've made it clear to my constituents. I'm not a wind sock, and I don't intend to be a wind sock and sway with the wind blowing one way or the other on these issues. My mind is open. My job is to exercise my judgment fairly to the president, to the process of law in this country, and I intend to do so and I will. JIM LEHRER: Congressman Taylor, is it fair to read what you said - from what you said a while ago that you have already decided that the president - you pretty much decided the president committed an impeachable offense? REP. GENE TAYLOR: I will agree with Chaka in one thing. I really do think we have enough information right now. The strongest charge to date is perjury. We can take a look -- the January 17th testimony is public testimony. What he said on August 17th has also been public testimony now. You could take a look at it too. I've made the decision, having watched both, that he intentionally misled the American people . That's perjury. This is not some dumb guy they just grabbed from off the farm. This is a graduate of one of the premiere law schools in America. He knows exactly what he's doing. And I think he intentionally misled the American people. And I'm ready to send it on to the Senate. I think these guys are more objective than I am. Of course, if they want to look at all these other things, fine, and that's what we're going to vote to do. But I do think there's enough right now, when it comes down to perjury, which in my mind is an extremely serious crime, because, again, we can't send a message out there to every rapist, every mugger, every murderer, hey, the president lied under oath; you can do it too. It's wrong. No one can do it.
	More important work to do?
	JIM LEHRER: Congressman Fattah, you have definitely decided that the president has not committed an impeachable offense, correct? REP. CHAKA FATTAH: I think it's clear that the same judgment that this Congress rendered on Speaker Gingrich when he admitted to providing misleading, inaccurate information, when we all came to the decision that, yes, he did something wrong, there should be a punishment. It should be short of tossing him out of office. He's a constitutional officer. We had the same circumstance. I agree with Gene. The strongest allegation is perjury. Okay? We had the same circumstance, except it wasn't about having a girlfriend. It was about important issues of the conduct of his official responsibility. This Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, decided that we would not toss him from office. We need to think long and hard about how we're going to proceed here. And I just hope that the Congress, as we set these precedents, are willing to stick by them across the board. I hope that we would be more reasonable. The American public - in the Constitution set up the Congress, the House so that we would be closer to the people, not to be divorced from the polls, not to be divorced from the opinions of the American people, but that we would always be at - the impulse of the American people. Their impulse now is that the president has more important work to do and so does this Congress. JIM LEHRER: All right. We have to leave it there, gentlemen. Thank you all four very much.