---

Former Senator Sam Nunn is joined by three other Senators to discuss whether President Clinton should resign in light of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

---

NEWSHOUR LINKS: August 17, 1998: A special package of coverage on the president's testimony. August 17, 1998: What is the grand jury's role in the Starr investigation? August 13, 1998: What impact will Starr's investigation have on the presidency ? July 30, 1998: Should Clinton address the public about the Lewinsky matter? July 28, 1998: Ken Starr makes an immunity deal with Monica Lewinsky. July 27, 1998: Ken Starr subpoenas the president to testify in front of his grand jury July 21, 1998: A roundtable discussion on Chief Justice Rehnquist's decision not to interfere with the subpoenas of secret service agents. July 15, 1998: Can the Justice Dept. force secret service agents to testify? July 1, 1998: A report on the question of executive privilege and the Starr investigation. Browse the NewsHour's coverage of the Starr Investigation. OUTSIDE LINKS The Pew Research Center for People and the Press.

JIM LEHRER: And that brings us finally tonight to the resignation question. Last month, Former Sen. Sam Nunn of Georgia became the first prominent Democrat to raise the question in a very public way. In an opinion piece for the Washington Post he questioned whether President Clinton could continue to govern effectively and provide the necessary leadership on domestic and international affairs, and he said, "This will require personal sacrifice and may even require his resignation, but it would fulfill the President's most important oath, to preserve and protect our nation." Sen. Nunn is with us tonight, along with three former colleagues, Democratic Senator Dale Bumpers of Arkansas and former Republican Senators John Danforth of Missouri and Warren Rudman of New Hampshire. Sen. Nunn, do you still believe the President may have to resign?

FORMER SEN. SAM NUNN, (D) Georgia: Jim, I think the President for the last seven months has not put the country's interest first. That's been very apparent. If he had, he would have corrected whatever mis-statements or inaccuracies or false statements had been made in the deposition months ago, and he would have apologized to the country. So he did not and has not put the country's interest first, and I think that is the duty of the President. That's the point I was making. At this stage I cannot say precisely what his duty demands that he do in terms of putting the country's interest first, but certainly dealing with any alleged acts of illegality and being frank and candid and voluntarily giving this information to the independent counsel, as well as, I think, to the Congress and the American people, is essential. Whether he will need to consider resignation seriously is a matter that he can determine better than anyone else, because he knows whether the news is going to get worse. I do not. I hope this President can be an effective president when he concludes his term. I hope that resignation is not required. But certainly that is a possibility that the President owes the nation, because he does know what acts have been committed here, and the rest of us do not.

JIM LEHRER: He owes it to the nation to at least consider it, is that what you're saying?

FORMER SEN. SAM NUNN: Depending on the facts, depending on whether the - he knows more about what's going to be in the Starr report than anyone else. He knows more about his own actions than anyone else, so he has an obligation here to put the nation's interest first and to determine whether, indeed, acts have been committed that could require his resignation in all good conscience. The damage that has been done to the country is considerable. We've had a lowering of moral discourse in the country. We've had a negative role model for our children when family deterioration is one of our principal social problems in this country, leading to many more. We've had a weakening of the office of the presidency, and we have diverted national attention from far more significant long-term matters for the nation, including both economic and foreign policy matters. So all of this has taken its toll, and it's my hope that we will not continue down this path for an indefinite time in the future.

JIM LEHRER: Sen. Rudman, where do you come down on the question of whether or not President Clinton has an obligation to consider resignation at least?

FORMER SEN. WARREN RUDMAN, (R) New Hampshire: Well, of course, I agree with Sam that there could come a point we would have that obligation. But I think one has to consider the resignation of a president in this country is a seismic event. It has many unintended consequences. It just cannot be taken lightly, and certainly no one is suggesting that it should be. We don't know if these facts are right. But we do have a process. It's called impeachment. And if, in fact, the Congress felt that there high crimes and misdemeanors, it certainly would proceed. Now, if, in fact, there are other facts that none of us know and it now comes out in a month or two or several weeks that there are other things that have happened which are essentially very serious in terms of criminal law, then I think he would have an obligation to resign, but let me give you my bottom line on this. My bottom line is that the process that the Constitution sets forth, I believe in that process. I guess I'm a traditionalist. Richard Nixon only resigned when it became apparent that the country was becoming essentially immobilized by his presidency. And if Bill Clinton were to be shown to have done things which none of us know about, except him, of course, and the special prosecutor, then at that point I think Sam Nunn is correct, that maybe you short-circuit the process and consider resignation, but not lightly, not lightly. It's a bad precedent to set.

JIM LEHRER: Should it even be discussed the way we're doing it? Should Senator Nunn have written his piece? Should we be talking about it?

FORMER SEN. WARREN RUDMAN: Oh, I think he should, and I'm glad that he did, because I thought a Democrat as prominent as Sam Nunn had some obligation to speak for the party, because not too many other people were. Let me say that the piece was provocative, but it was very thoughtful, and what Sam essentially was saying to us and also I think to President Clinton is you ought to consider this at some time. Sam did not say you should do it now. And let me say that, you know, this is a very disturbing thing to all of us who love the country, who love the institutions that this country has, but the American people, more than anyone else, look at the situation and I think they recognize that they are stronger than their government in many ways, and thank God they are, and they always have been. If the American people start to turn, if other evidence comes forth, then I think what Sam wrote is very appropriate, and I think we have to sit back and wait.

JIM LEHRER: Sit back and wait, Senator Danforth?

FORMER SEN. JOHN DANFORTH, (R) Missouri: Jim, I don't think so. I mean, it seems to me that the issue here is really very straightforward, and that is, can we have, as a President of the United States someone who has sex with an intern and then lies to the American people? And I think that the answer to that question is that we cannot have such a president. I don't think that this hangs on, you know, what more is in the independent counsel's report. The two things that we - I guess - know and this would be confirmed in the report - has to do with sex with an intern and has to do with lying. And the simple question before the American people now through the Congress is, does this meet the minimum standards that we have as a people, as a country? I think that the behavior of the President, assuming sex with an intern and assuming lying, is so far below any standards that we have as a country that the President cannot stay around. And I think that Congress should proceed with impeachment. Whether the President decides to resign or not is purely a personal decision on his part, but it seems to me that the Congress has to vindicate some very basic standards here. No corporation that I know of would permit this of a corporate officer. We know that the military wouldn't permit it. Educational institutions wouldn't either. So what are we saying to all of these institutions, and what are we saying to our children if we say we are willing to keep in office somebody who does these things? I think this is a very, very serious matter.

JIM LEHRER: But what about the process point that Sen. Rudman raised, that democracy has a way of working and the process with that in case - if you, in fact, are right, the process will take care of that before resignation - how do you feel about that?

FORMER SEN. JOHN DANFORTH: Well, the process is impeachment, and that is exactly what I think should go forward. I mean, impeachment is not like a trial. The trial happens in the Senate. The House of Representatives would impeach, meaning would act similarly to a grand jury and decide that there's sufficient evidence to take it to a trial. I think that that is exactly the process. So you don't think that the President -

FORMER SEN. JOHN DANFORTH: I think that the importance of the Congress doing this is that the American people really have to speak on it, and what is troubling is the public opinion polls, if it is true, that the American people say that they don't care about it, or it doesn't matter to them, or that the business of being a president is just the business of a technician, let him go on with the technical work of the presidency - that really is troubling, because the presidency is very symbolic. The President of the United States is a leader, and this person is attacking existing standards in this country, and if we decide to keep him in office, we would have been accomplices to that.

JIM LEHRER: That's quite an indictment, Senator Bumpers.

SEN. DALE BUMPERS, (D) Arkansas: You know, Jim, first of all, we have to remember that presidents are human beings, just like the rest of us. And we have a saying that you've heard since you were a child about to err is human, to forgive is divine. But having said that, let me say, I totally agree with something Sen. Rudman said, and that is we're treating this much too cavalierly in this country. We - the words resignation and impeachment roll off our lips very easily. And that's a terrible, terrible consequence of this. It is for the nation. Let me also say that the American people are way ahead of the politicians on this one. The American people have said we know what the President did; there isn't anybody in this country that has to have all the salacious details that are going to be in the Starr report to know that the President had a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Everybody - Democrats and Republicans alike - condemn his conduct. I won't say it's unforgivable, but it is certainly regrettable. And, having said that, let me also say Bill Clinton and I have been good friends for 25 years. And I know him better than most. And nobody is more remorseful about this lapse in judgment than he is. And I promise you - and I think - I think that he will spend the rest of his life trying to merit his wife and daughter's forgiveness, as well as the forgiveness of the American people. But the American people are saying, by margins of 70 to 75 percent, we know what the President did, we do not need all the salacious details, and we do not want him to resign, and we do not want him impeached, and the reason we don't is because it isn't just that the sin, for example, doesn't warrant some dramatic action against the President. They do not want to put the country through the trauma of it. And I think so far they're right. I'm like everybody else; I'm reserving judgment till the report comes in. But having said that, let me add one other little caveat that I hope the American people remember. When you get the report from Kenneth Starr, you should bear in mind there's going to be wholesale hearsay testimony that would never have been admissible in a court of law. I don't think Ken Starr, when he got damning testimony from a witness, I don't think he spent very much time going out trying to find out a witness to refute that. And that report, in my opinion, based on being a trial lawyer myself once upon a time, that report is not going to be - is not going to be very evenhanded. I hope it is. But I can tell you - it's going to have a lot of hearsay testimony in it too. So I would plead with people, don't come to a hasty judgment on this.

FORMER SEN. WARREN RUDMAN: Just one point on Jack Danforth's excellent point, and I don't disagree with much that he said, but, you know, one of the things that concerns me, if the President were to come back from Ireland tomorrow or the day after and resign, would the American people, for better or for worse, thinking he's been a good president and approving his job approval - and I dare say the unintended consequence would be a backlash against media, against the Congress - whereas, if you let the system work, which is what I am proposing, then people have a better chance to judge for themselves. And that's the point that I'm making.

JIM LEHRER: Let the system work, Sen. Nunn?

FORMER SEN. SAM NUNN: Yes. I think the system ought to work. I think that impeachment is in the Constitution of the United States. The politicians will decide this question, although the public opinion will have a huge influence on it. And that's appropriate and proper. But there are some things that need to be done in the interim. We've got a lot at stake with the world economy. The world economy now is probably more fragile than it's been in the last 20/30 years, maybe longer. The United States is the leader of the world in this regard. We have a lot at stake in Iraq. We have soldiers' lives at stake in Bosnia and in Korea. We have a lot of danger spots in the Middle East and Southwest Asia, with nuclear proliferation. All of these things require American leadership. American leadership requires trust, and that trust requires credibility and a degree of moral authority. And I think the Congress has a duty here in these difficult circumstances also, and that is to understand that it's very important to the Congress and the President and the key cabinet officials to be in contact. We're about to have in about three weeks about three months of recess and a political campaign. The world doesn't sit back and wait while that goes on. The world perceives we have a weakened president. That makes the situation more dangerous everywhere, both economically and national security-wise. I think Congress ought to appoint a few people to represent the leadership and being in communication with the President and other cabinet officials that have to lead in foreign policy so that Congress can basically respond in a timely fashion to any presidential request during this period, because let's don't fool ourselves. We're in a more dangerous period now because of America's preoccupation with this scandal.

JIM LEHRER: Sen. Bumpers, do you feel that the President has been weakened severely in his ability to function as President of the United States along the lines Sen. Nunn just laid out?

SEN. DALE BUMPERS: I think the President may be weakened slightly. But I don't think it's severely. I don't think his relationship with the leaders of the world has really been crippled, and I think the - I don't think the Russians, for example, in this trip sat back. Russia is not interested in Monica Lewinsky; Russia is interested in the fact that they can't buy food; their economy is collapsing. And I don't think the President's strength in the world has anything to do with that. And I think - I want to say one other thing, Jim. I hear a lot about moral authority. You know, I admire Mark McGwire. I've watched that - I watch it every night. I'm just in awe of this guy, but I don't look to him for moral authority. I don't look - I look to the President to be a leader, but I don't look to the President to be a moral authority. I go to church and I have a pastor and I look to them for moral leadership, but I don't look to the President. I look for him to be a leader. I look for him to be intelligent. I look for him to do things that make us a stronger nation. And I think that the President - I'm not sure how this is going to come out - and I'm not prejudging it for myself. I'm not telling you right now what I might do. I'm just simply saying - I'm pleading with people - you know, wait and see. And the American people - I want to reiterate - Sam Nunn has just said - and he said correctly - politics will play a role in this. That means the American people are going to be influencing how their senators and congressmen conduct themselves on this, and the American people, as I said a moment ago, they're wait out in front on this. They may change; they may turn. I think Sen. Nunn made that point awhile ago. But I'm just saying if there ever was a time for people to be patient in their judgments, this is it.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. I wish we could go on, but we have to end it there. Thank you all four Senators very much.

REGIONS TOPICS RECENT PROGRAMS ABOUT US FEEDBACK SUBSCRIPTIONS / FEEDS:

Support the kind of journalism done by the NewsHour...Become a member of your local PBS station.
PBS Online Privacy Policy Copyright ©1996- MacNeil/Lehrer Productions. All Rights Reserved.