WRAPPING UP WHITEWATER
September 20, 2000

Independent Counsel Robert Ray has concluded the Whitewater investigation, clearing President and Mrs. Clinton of any wrongdoing. He discusses the six-year investigation with Jim Lehrer.

June 23, 2000: Newsmaker: Independent Counsel Robert Ray. July 6, 1999: Presidential historians discuss Hillary Clinton's possible run for the Senate seat in New York. Online NewsHour Special Report: Kenneth Starr The Starr Report March 17, 1999: Attorney General Reno's testimony about the Independent Counsel law. Feb. 24, 1999: Debate over the Independent Counsel law Browse the NewsHour's coverage of Whitewater.     Office of Independent Counsel White House	JIM LEHRER: The end of the Whitewater investigation. We begin with a Newsmaker interview with the man who ended it today, Independent Counsel Robert Ray. Mr. Ray, welcome. ROBERT RAY, Independent Counsel: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
	No charges against the Clintons
	JIM LEHRER: You decided not to bring charges against the Clintons. Why? ROBERT RAY: Well, the job a prosecutor has after a full and complete investigation, which was conducted here, is to make a determination, a judgment about whether or not sufficient evidence exists to bring a case before a jury. That is the judgment that a prosecutor makes. That's the judgment that was made here. And I thought it appropriate to inform the public that those matters have been concluded in the exercise of that judgment, no charges will be brought. In due time, a final report will be filed with the special division, and ultimately that matter will become my... my expectation would be that that matter will become public. But at this point, it was appropriate to inform the public of the findings and conclusions with regard to the core matters of the investigation. We have done so. A prosecutorial judgment has been rendered. And I have now informed the public of that judgment. JIM LEHRER: Should this be seen as a technical legal judgment on your part or a substantial evidence judgment? They didn't do it, or you just couldn't prove it? ROBERT RAY: Well, the judgment that a prosecutor renders is based upon sufficient credible evidence to believe that a conviction could be sustained beyond a reasonable doubt. That's the only judgment a prosecutor makes. I made a prosecutorial judgment. It's not a technical or a legal judgment; it's a prosecutor's judgment conducting a prosecutor's job based upon an investigation. That's the only judgment I make. I make it in my limited role. And once that limited role has been completed, then I should step aside. JIM LEHRER: But in layman's terms for the people who are watching this and are going to read about this in the morning, should they take away from your decision the fact that you have, in fact, cleared the Clintons of any criminal wrongdoing? ROBERT RAY: I have cleared the Clintons of criminal charges being brought. It's not for me to say whether certain things should have been done or shouldn't have been done. That's not a judgment that I make. I make a prosecutorial judgment only. There's not a prosecutorial solution to every problem in the country. I think the country needs to have confidence that the role that I play, the limited role I play, I play it simply as a prosecutor rendering that judgment. And that's the judgment that we've made here. It's for others to decide about, based upon the facts and circumstances uncovered during the course of our investigation, what the country and the public think about that. That's not my function. JIM LEHRER: Now, when will the country and the public get the final report about what you did find to make this judgment? ROBERT RAY: Well, as you saw in connection with the FBI files, the conclusion of that investigation, it was sent to the special division essentially in a period between three and four months after that is... the process is completed does ultimately the report become public. Again, it's difficult to say because each matter is somewhat difficult than the next. And this one is relatively more complicated than both the FBI files matter and the Travel Office investigation, which we concluded in March and in June. As I have indicated since early this year, it was my intention on behalf of the office to bring these matters to a conclusion, the first being FBI files in March, the second the Travel Office matter in June -- and now this, the conclusion of the Madison Guaranty-Whitewater investigation in September. There's a process that will ultimately play out. There are, with regard to certain limited impending matters, still some things to do. But within the core of our jurisdiction, we were able to bring the matter to closure, as I said that we would.
	Why a six-year investigation?
	JIM LEHRER: Why did it take six years to get here? ROBERT RAY: Well, in part, as we explained in this statement to the public that I issued today, the investigation was complicated by the fact that there were certain legal challenges made to our access to evidence brought by the White House and other officials. That delayed our investigation. The public also should know that in connection with this matter, the investigation did establish that crimes were committed. But the most important aspect of the investigation was within its core, the core question to determine whether or not either the First Lady or the President had a knowledge of any criminal wrongdoing and with regard to questions that they were asked, whether or not any false statements were made, perjury or obstruction of justice. With regard to all of those matters, the determination of this investigation is that there was insufficient evidence to proceed, and because that judgment was rendered, I decided to close the investigation. JIM LEHRER: When you say "crimes were committed," you mean by others? ROBERT RAY: Correct. JIM LEHRER: By Former Governor Tucker, Former Justice Department official Webster Hubbell and others, Susan McDougal, those folks, right? ROBERT RAY: Correct. JIM LEHRER: 12 people all together, charges were brought against them? ROBERT RAY: Yes. Yes. JIM LEHRER: All right. And so you concluded that even those people may have committed crimes, but the Clintons were also not guilty of any perjury or obstruction of justice or anything related to those people's crimes, correct? ROBERT RAY: That's correct. There were two principal issues: one, did they know about it, were they participants in it; and when they were asked questions about it, did they tell the truth, and was there or was there not obstruction of justice? With regard to each of those matters, we examined them. We examined them from the standpoint of a prosecutor making a judgment about whether or not a criminal case should be brought, and only upon a judgment that there was sufficient evidence to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt would we exercise our judgment to bring such charges. That's the judgment that was made, nothing else, just that judgment. JIM LEHRER: All right. Now, you've been in office almost a year now. You took over from Kenneth Starr. Did your investigation -- I'm talking strictly now the Whitewater-Madison Guaranty issue -- was that investigation essentially done when you took over, and you just reviewed what had already been found out by Starr and his folks, or did you continue an investigation, turn up new things, follow new leads, or whatever? ROBERT RAY: Well, I mean, for a prosecutor, an investigation continues until such time as those judgments are rendered. With regard both to the FBI files matter, the Travel Office matter, as well as the Madison Guaranty-Whitewater investigation, that investigation continues up to and including the time that a judgment is made either to prosecute or not to prosecute. Even in circumstances where a prosecutor makes a judgment to prosecute, an investigation continues up through the time that a proceeding is brought. That is an ongoing effort, but I want to assure the public that, again, the public needs to perceive, and I need to be sending an appropriate signal that an investigation again is not an end in itself. There are important issues that were raised, substantial questions that caused the appointment of an independent counsel with regard to these matters. Recognizing that, however, ultimately an investigation is conducted to render a judgment, and that's the judgment that we tried to render here. And I believe that we have done so in accordance with the plan that I set out during the course of my tenure as independent counsel to bring these matters, if they could be brought to conclusion during the course of this year. JIM LEHRER: Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. This investigation went on five years before you got it. You looked at everything that the Starr people had collected, and you did your own, whatever work you thought needed to be done in light of that. Did you conclude that there was in fact a legitimate reason to have launched this criminal investigation against the Clintons at the beginning? ROBERT RAY: It wasn't my choice. JIM LEHRER: No, no, no. I know that. But did you... looking at everything, did you think that this was, in fact, the proper investigation from the beginning? ROBERT RAY: That's not a question I asked myself. That really is for others to decide. I am in the position once an investigation has been called for -- the President signed the independent counsel statute into law. It has now since lapsed. But it was applicable to this matter and continued not withstanding the expiration of that statute. The attorney general of the United States exercised her discretion in calling for the appointment of an independent counsel with regard to this matter. It was given to my predecessor. Upon my appointment I inherited that jurisdictional mandate. That's not a question I asked. I have an investigation. I have a job to do and a role to play to make a judgment about whether or not charges are to be brought. It's for others to decide whether or not it's appropriate to initiate an investigation in the first place. JIM LEHRER: But you didn't -- as a professional looking at this -- have a reaction, "My goodness, this was a serious matter from the beginning" or "My goodness, why in the world did they ever start this thing in the first place?" ROBERT RAY: Well, that was a judgment that the attorney general rendered. JIM LEHRER: You didn't make an opinion based on your reading of this material? ROBERT RAY: It's hard enough just to draw the judgments that I'm entrusted to make without doing someone else's job. I did my job. My job is to determine whether or not there's sufficient credible evidence to bring charges. In this case, there was not. JIM LEHRER: The reason I'm asking this, of course, as you know, the Clintons and others have charged this was a political vendetta from the beginning. What's your reaction to that kind of comment now after having looked at what has happened the last six years? ROBERT RAY: I've been asked that before. I think that's unfortunate. I think that great damage has been done to the integrity and the credibility that the public believes exists in federal law enforcement and the ability of federal law enforcement with regard to an important question involving high-level government officials to get it right and to do it fairly and to do it in a non-partisan way for the right reasons, based upon the exercise of judgment, prosecutorial judgment. My job is now, having inherited the investigation, to bring it to a conclusion -- hopefully in such a way that the country eventually will come to respect the fact that a reasonable prosecutorial judgment was made with regard to a set of facts. It is, I hope, in part my role to play to restore at least to the extent that I am able the public's confidence in the fact that such an investigation, even though it takes a long time, can ultimately reach a conclusion, that it is not an investigation that simply goes on forever. And one of the reasons to announce the findings and conclusions with regard to this matter now in September is so that there would not be any lingering cloud that would hover over the First Lady's campaign or over the electoral process as we move now closer to November. I thought it important to be able to render that judgment now so that the country has the benefit of my findings and conclusions and also the benefit of the fact that the investigation was brought to closure and that there was in fact an end. JIM LEHRER: So are you asking... are you saying then that the public should read this as this six years was worth it, this six years was justified, justice was done? ROBERT RAY: Well, I hope the public comes to respect the fact that a process was engaged in. It was not a perfect process. Good people tried to do the best that they could do to reach appropriate conclusions. Investigations are time consuming. They take too long. Money is expended. Investigators are hired. Prosecutors have to review the record. It is difficult. It exists in a very difficult climate in this time in our history. What I hope people come away from this experience is that the system ultimately can work. It doesn't work perfectly. We do the best that we can. We ultimately render the judgments based upon a thorough investigation, and we reach closure. And the country, I think, wants closure to these matters, but it doesn't expect me, while they would like me to wrap it up, they don't expect me, I think, to walk away from those responsibilities. And that's what I've tried to do here.
	Criminal indictment of President Clinton?
	JIM LEHRER: Now, speaking of closure, you have also said publicly that you are... Well, I'll just ask you, are you still going to... are you still considering seeking an indictment, a criminal indictment against President Clinton in the Monica Lewinsky matter after he leaves office? ROBERT RAY: I have said that that matter remains open, that it would be appropriate to render that judgment once the President leaves office. It is now publicly known. It was not my choice, but it has now become publicly known that there's a grand jury investigation in the District of Columbia with regard to that matter. And beyond that and given that fact, I cannot have any further comment. JIM LEHRER: Doesn't that walk on your closure statement a moment ago or not? Did I misread what you're saying? In other words, it is... the cloud over President Clinton still exists, because there is a grand jury investigating the possibility or considering the possibility of indicting him, correct? ROBERT RAY: Well, there are constitutional reasons why it is appropriate to not render that judgment until such time as the President leaves office. I think as a practical matter, as I have explained in other context, even if one were convinced that it was appropriate to bring charges and to bring them now, that would be a constitutional issue about whether or not a sitting United States President could be indicted. For that issue to be resolved, and it would have to ultimately be resolved by the United States Supreme Court, that would take us well beyond January 2001, and I do not render decisions in a vacuum. An appropriate decision, as I have said, will be rendered in January 2001. Now, I well understand that the viability of my office continues during the life of this administration and not much beyond it. And I fully intend to render a judgment with regard to that matter promptly. JIM LEHRER: But I'm not sure I follow you on this, Mr. Ray. I'm not trying to be difficult, but clearly then if you had concluded that you were not going to seek a grand jury, you could announce it tomorrow, but the fact... an indictment against…you could announce that tomorrow. That doesn't impinge on any constitutional problem. It's the fact that -- so the only way to read this is that you are seriously considering seeking an indictment, correct? ROBERT RAY: No. I can't comment. JIM LEHRER: Did I misread that? ROBERT RAY: No. I can't comment about that. And it's not appropriate for me to comment about it. What I have said is there's a process under way. I have said that by conducting that process, we will be vindicating the principle that no person, including the President of the United States, is above the law -- but that by signaling that process, that's not to suggest one way or another which way this matter will be decided. JIM LEHRER: Sure. ROBERT RAY: And I am not saying that, nor is it appropriate for me to comment about a matter now that has become publicly known, that there is an active grand jury investigation with regard to that aspect of our jurisdiction. JIM LEHRER: But if you chose not to seek an indictment, there's nothing in the process that would preclude you from announcing that today. That's all I'm trying to get at, right? Am I right or wrong about that? ROBERT RAY: Well, what I am telling you is there is a process under way, and it's a hypothetical question because you now know what it is my office is conducting. It is conducting a grand jury investigation with regard to the matter, and it will reach appropriate conclusions at the appropriate time. JIM LEHRER: All right. Mr. Ray, thank you very much. ROBERT RAY: Thank you. Thank you for having me.